Diary of a Matchmaker
Getting married is tough for the vast majority of Muslims in the West. We know because we’ve been there. My (Zaid) journey spanned nearly nine years. It was filled with rejections and self-doubt. While I (Hiba) didn't know there was a journey to be on in the first place. After we got married we decided to create something different to help single Muslims complete their deen. And so our matchmaking service Halal Match was born.
After a few years of interviewing singles, a friend suggested we journal our stories. We tweaked that idea and turned it into a podcast. In ‘Diary of a Matchmaker’ we’ll take you through this unfamiliar world of matchmaking. We’ll share our stories, experiences, and much more. So say Bismillah and tune in.
Do you have a story to share? Email us at: info@halalmatch.ca
Diary of a Matchmaker
Shaking Up Muslim Views on Sex and Pleasure w/ Sh. Habeeb Akande
In this episode, we’re joined by Habeeb Akande, a sex educator and Muslim erotologist, to challenge outdated views on intimacy in Islam. He’s here to remind us of the true Islamic teachings on relationships. Think consent, mutual respect, and yes, female pleasure, and how cultural norms and misinformation have twisted our understanding of intimacy.
We also dive into how to read religious teachings the right way, without getting stuck in outdated, stuffy views. Plus, we tackle real-life topics like STIs and porn addiction. Tune in for a fresh take on sex and pleasure.
Habeeb is the founder of Erotology Institute For Sacred Pleasur and the author of many books. Find him on his website , on Amazon, and on Instagram
Desire, discrepancy and incompatibility in the bedroom. This can be alleviated prior to marriage in terms of understanding what is one's sexual expectations, because a lot of people their expectations about intimacy is, I would argue, unrealistic. A number of brothers in particular have this sexual schizophrenia that they suffer from. If they speak to or if they see a non-Muslim woman can be a human being, they can see as a human being, but so as soon as they see a muslim woman wearing a hijab, oh my god, I suffer a lion. I generally encourage women to ask their potential spouse to take an sti test regardless um, because it is a reality that a number of people do have premarital relations, and just to protect themselves.
Speaker 2:Assalamu alaikum everyone. Welcome to another episode. My name is Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host Hiba.
Speaker 3:Assalamu alaikum everyone.
Speaker 2:Today we are honored to have a very special guest, somebody that Hiba and I have both been following for a very long time, who provides something, I would say to us something new. So a quick bio of him. He is a sex educator, bestselling author and Muslim erotologist. A former student of Islamic law at Al-Azhar University in Egypt, habib has over 15 years of experience teaching the art of halal intimacy and women's sexual rights in Islam. In 2020, habib made a critically acclaimed documentary with the BBC about female pleasure and featured his work as a leading sex expert. He's the founder of Erotology Institute, an online educational platform offering courses on Islamic sexology and African intimacy. Habib is also a chartered accountant by profession, so thank you for coming on to our podcast.
Speaker 1:Jazakallah khairan. Assalamualaikum to you both. Thank you very much for inviting me.
Speaker 3:Waalaikumsalam. I think we forgot to mention your last name. It's Brother Habib Akande.
Speaker 2:Yes, sorry about that, Habib Akande. Honestly, we were a bit surprised that you even accepted our invite, because we're like an itty-bitty, tiny little podcast and, mashallah, you're like a published author, a scholar from Allah Azhar. We were like he's probably not going to respond to us on instagram, but let's just see what happens. And then we messaged you were like, oh my god, uh. So thank you so much, or we're so glad to have you well, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1:Just even sorry to interject, but what you said is quite important that even for people to draw inspiration from that, don't be shy or afraid to reach out to people. Um, and you, when you reached out and I looked a bit into your background and I saw you did a great interview with the Mad Mum Looks and with Sheikh Ahmad as well, so because of that, I was more than happy to help any way I can.
Speaker 2:So how has your experience been so far as a Muslim educator slash erotologist? What's that journey been like?
Speaker 1:Well, I would say it's been eventful. I'm quite an optimist, so I try and look at the good points. So I definitely think it's been an enjoyable journey, a beneficial journey, but I do receive some pushback, I do receive some backlash, but maybe because I'm Nigerian and we're known to have quite a thick skin so it doesn't bother me as much. But I look at the positives and the fact that um alhamdulillah, you know, a number of people from around the world have benefited from my work and I've helped to revive the science or topic of erotology within islamic framework, um which I wanted to do, and to try and inspire others, especially um muslim women in particular, to speak about this topic. You know, um from an islamic or god-conscious framework, because I think many times it's and it as a man saying it it's often men that are speaking about intimacy and sex, and I think one of the things that's quite lacking is we don't have as many Muslim women, educators and experts that are known. There are many, but many people aren't aware of them, so a lot of my work is to kind of amplify their voices as well, as well as address some many taboos that many people have about Islam and intimacy in Islam or sexuality or erotology in Islam. In Islam, a lot of Muslims haven't really studied the deen and a lot of their understanding of the deen, a lot of it's been informed or misinformed by their cultural upbringing or their social cultural conditioning.
Speaker 1:So a lot of my work is trying to address some misconceptions and help people have better fulfilling marital relations, which is obviously should be mutually pleasurable for both the man and the woman alike. And a lot of our work is, and you mentioned in the beginning, specializing in female pleasure, because I think that's a topic that doesn't really get spoken about much nowadays when, if you actually look in our tradition many of the early scholars, they place more emphasis on men ensuring that their wives were sexually satisfied as opposed to themselves, and drawing again from the hadith literature which talks about that, but for various reasons, many muslims unfortunately are not aware of that. So, yeah, I would say my, my journey in some has been eventful. Um inshallah has been net, positive um, but, that being said, there are, you know, pushback. There is, you know, some people who don't appreciate or don't like my work for various reasons, and that's fine. I just try and focus on the positive. So Alhamdulillah.
Speaker 3:So, from your experience, what would you say the most common misconceptions about sex and intimacy in the Muslim community, and how does that affect relationships?
Speaker 1:Okay, one of the biggest misconceptions I'm trying to debunk is the idea that women cannot refuse their husbands in the bedroom and the idea of consent doesn't exist in marriage and, unfortunately, in many muslim majority countries the concept of marital rape doesn't exist, which again is extremely problematic, um and also in it for many muslims in western countries.
Speaker 1:Many muslim Muslims have this idea that a woman cannot refuse intimacy and this idea of consent, like I said, doesn't exist.
Speaker 1:When I argue that consent is essential for a healthy, fulfilling marital relationship in Islam and it's important that Muslims understand this, both men and women alike there's also this idea that sex is just for procreational purposes and I would argue that's more from a Christian perspective that many Muslims have adopted or certain cultures have the idea that, you know, sex is just really for procreational purposes or it's just there to satisfy the man and women are there just to serve the man Victorian Christian understanding of male-female relationships that many Muslims adopted following the colonization of the Muslim world, where we look at men just being primarily being providers and women being their primary role just to be mothers or to cook or clean, but no one really speaks about the intimate relations and how that should be mutually beneficial for both the man and the woman alike, not just for the man.
Speaker 1:And unfortunately, like I said, in a number of muslim organizations mosques, um, there is this over emphasis on telling women that there should be always sexually available for the man, but there isn't any emphasis placed on teaching men about the importance of consent, but understanding, um, emotional intimacy, being a kind and considerate husband, like the prophet muhammad peace be upon him was, and also to be attentive in the bedroom. So it's like an overcorrection that I think kind of needs to be done. And again, so they're the three main misconceptions around sex I've found in the Muslim community, but there are many others which we can talk about a little bit later.
Speaker 2:So that ties into my next question because, just to play devil's advocate, I feel like a lot of this understanding comes from, maybe, a misinterpretation of the famous hadiths sex to the man. And then also there's a hadith where um prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, said if I asked a woman to do sajda to anyone else other than their creator, it would be to her husband. So there's this implication, that there's this um subservience and obedience to her husband, despite the circumstances. So what would you say in response to that?
Speaker 1:yeah, what? What I would say, first and foremost, as Muslims, if, when we're talking about male-female relationships, oftentimes Muslims will bring up those hadiths that you've mentioned, which are quite controversial. A number of them are authentic, but you also have some unreliable and weak hadiths and fabricated hadiths about how women should kind of obey their husbands. What I would say is, again is looking at what traditional Muslim scholars have said about those hadiths. Some scholars don't actually accept those hadiths because in their understanding, it contradicts the Quran. Because if you look at the Quran and the way Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, speaks about male-female relationships, it's one which is like a partnership for both the women have rights, men have rights. The way Allah, a partnership for both. The women have rights, men have rights. The way allah speaks about intimacy, allah uses a beautiful um metaphor to describe men as being garments for their wives and also, worse, to be garments for their husbands. So when you look at the way allah speaks about marriage, it should be based on mawadda, which is love, rahma, which is mercy, and there should be tranquility, sakina. So this is something that should be our underpinning in terms of how we understand male-female relationships. Now, when we look at the hadith tradition, one first and foremost needs to contextualize these hadiths and then what scholars will try and do is try to understand what is the intended meaning, because the Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, in a number of hadiths and this is quite common in um, in arabic, especially during the time of the prophet that he will use a lot of like um hyperbolic speech, like exaggerated speech, and not everything should necessarily be taken literally.
Speaker 1:Now there's also some hadiths, and imam asyuti, jalal al-din asyuti, was a scholar from the 15th century. He mentioned a number of those hadiths about encouraging women to ensure that their um number of those hadiths about encouraging women to ensure that their a number of those hadiths was to encourage women to ensure that their husbands were sexually satisfied, and he also said, like Imam al-Qurri said, that it goes both ways. So this is the idea was that in Islam, men have the right to sexual fulfillment from their wives and also women have the right to sexual fulfillment from their husbands and both should strive to ensure that their partners are sexually satisfied, with the opinion that that obviously should be based on love, affection, and should be tranquility, which indicates that there should obviously be consent, so it's not as if a man can force himself on his wife or he shouldn't use those hadiths to coerce his wife into intimacy, and something that, if one looks at the hadith compilation of Bukhari Adab al-Mufrad, there's a hadith which a lot of people don't really talk about, where a woman went to Aisha may Allah be pleased with her and asked her. She said that you know, I'm married and my husband wants intimacy, and sometimes I'm not always in the mood and Aisha responded and said that no, he has a right to have intimacy with you, but she didn't say like the angels will curse you or anything like that. Now, this is something that even some of my teachers have said is that when you've got a number of those hadiths that have different wordings like one of the hadiths says the angels will curse the woman, another hadith says that allah will be upset with the woman if she, if she, refuses.
Speaker 1:Other hadith uses like hyperbolic speech in the sense that if a man calls his wife for intimacy and she refuses, she should respond, even if she's on a camel and it doesn't mean literally, if she's on a camel he should copulate with her. Of course, that doesn't mean that. Likewise, there's another narration which says that even if a wife is cooking, she should respond. So all of these and again, this is something that most of us is important to understand. When we talk about hadith and of course I believe in hadith, I don't I'm not quranist or anything like that one needs to understand.
Speaker 1:There's some hadiths. Even those hadiths are authentic. They've been narrated word for word what the prophet peace be upon him said. And there's also some hadiths are authentic that were narrated by its meaning. So someone might have heard what the prophet said, or or companion, and they've narrated what they think. What was the intended meaning, and that's why you have different um wordings and that's why it could be a case of the actual wording was actually what the prophet peace be upon him said.
Speaker 1:And the most important thing, ultimately, is what is the understanding? And the whole idea, like, as you see, like I mentioned he said is that the intended meaning of those hadiths is to encourage women to ensure that they comply with their husband's requests. Again, it doesn't mean that if a woman is not in the mood, she's exhausted, that he can force himself on her. In no situation at all should a man force himself on his wife, and I think it's important that, as Muslims, we should be very clear with that, because even when I was studying and I read those hadiths, how I understood them was that it's to encourage women to ensure that they fulfill their husband's requests, but it doesn't mean that if she's not in the mood, that he can force himself on her. It was only like maybe like when I came back from the UK and speaking to some people that that was understanding that they had, and I was like, are we reading the same hadith? But then I realized me reading it, I didn't get the understanding, but some people, unfortunately, they did get the understanding and, if we're going to be honest, even there are some classical scholars, unfortunately, have even said that even if a woman refuses intimacy, he can force himself on her and take his rights.
Speaker 1:Now, I don't believe that at all, but I'm not going to deny that that's not within our tradition. Yeah, there are great scholars, even within the Hanbali Madhhab, who have said that, and there's classical scholars. So, as much as we can say, this is a misunderstanding or misinterpretation. You do have some interpretations that do say that, but I don't agree with that interpretation at all and it's important that, as Muslims, we acknowledge and be honest and say that, yes, there may be some, or there are some, misogynistic sentiments, there are some problematic views within our tradition and that's why you do find some people who have these beliefs, because that's what they've studied and that's why one of my teachers he said that when we're studying the Sharia and Fiqh, of course we have reverence and we respect our scholars, but we have to understand that there are a number of opinions and not every opinion is valid and not every opinion you need to necessarily take, and especially for those of us in the in the western countries.
Speaker 1:Anyway, in america, uk and canada, marriage rape is illegal anyway. So even if someone thinks that is permissible in islam, it's, it's illegal and therefore it's also prohibited as well. So it's important, that important that Muslims have that understanding because, for whatever reason, I've noticed that a number of imams or shaykhs they don't want to categorically say this is un-Islamic, they don't want to categorically say this is haram. They don't want to categorically say that as a man, you shouldn't force yourself upon your wife. I think we should be very clear with that. The same way, we're very categoric in the sense of saying that what was practiced in the past might have been socially acceptable, like maybe marrying a woman that's 15, 14. That might have been acceptable. We're not saying anything about that now. That's completely unacceptable and I just think that, as muslims, we have to be very clear with this issue because, especially with those hadiths, oftentimes it's weaponized by muslim men, by preachers, by imams as well, unfortunately, and women have this idea that when they go into the bedroom or when they get married, they've got no rights that they can't even refuse.
Speaker 1:And this is, you know, this is this is one of the biggest injustice I think we've done to the religion that people feel that when you get married, you can't even, you're not even safe in your own home and even safe with the person who should be your garment, who should be your place of comfort, you know. So that's why I think, as Muslims, we have to be very strong on this and not wait for a lot of Muslims to lead this charge and then we say, oh yeah, islam has been saying that. All of a sudden, how many Muslims do you find outwardly speak about the importance of consent, outwardly speak about the importance of consent when speaking about hadith? One thing that, as Muslims, we need to understand is that there's a hadith which, again, is a report of something that a Prophet, peace be upon him, said, did or approved of, and then there's a sunnah, which is the normative practice of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. And sometimes people use the two terms interchangeably when, according to most scholars, especially early scholars, they're not the same. And the reason why it's important to understand that is because you can have a hadith, which is a piece of data, but that doesn't necessarily give the full picture. You need to understand the sunnah and this is something that many of the, even like Aisha may Allah be pleased with her that sometimes some of the male companions will narrate a hadith and because obviously she knows the sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him that she lived with the Prophet over 10 years. She sometimes wouldn't accept the hadith because it contradicted what was the established sunnah.
Speaker 1:So there's a couple of hadiths that Abu Hurairah reported in relation to, like um women that when a man, if a man, is praying and a woman walks past him, that the prayer is nullified. She didn't accept that hadith. She said either you've misunderstood the hadith, um, or you've that you heard that from someone, someone else. So that's an example of her not accepting the hadith. There's another hadith where abu hurayrah and some other scholars compared women to like dogs, and she, again, she didn't accept the hadith. And these are hadiths that abu hurayrah reported. And again, this is not to cast any aspersion against abu hurayrah, may allah be pleased with him. These are hadiths that are reported in in bukhari, which is an authentic compilation of hadiths.
Speaker 1:Now, aisha's response is not in Bukhari. So if you're reading that hadith without context, you will think, oh, if a woman walks in front of a man's while he's praying, the prayer is nullified, not realizing. There's another hadith that Aisha responds, which is reported in Ibn Hibban, where she mentions that Abu Hurairah understood the hadith incorrectly, or that's not the case. And then she gives her evidences that sometimes the Prophet peace be upon him will be praying and she will be lying in bed in front of him and sometimes, maybe if her leg was in the way, she would just usher and move her leg. So this is an example that sometimes, when you take a hadith in isolation, without understanding the sunnah, the full context, you might think that what the hadith says is actually different, what the actual sunnah is.
Speaker 1:And again, when we're talking about male-female relations, um intimacy, the hadith of al-juwainiyah, which a lot of people don't talk about hadith, as reported in bukhari, where a newly married woman married the prophet muhammad, peace be upon him, and when he entered upon the marital home and he wanted to have relations with her, she declined. And then he saw that for every reason she wasn't interested. So he wanted to console her. Then she said some words in this in the sense of I seek refuge, in allah, from you. And then the prophet detected that, okay, she doesn't want to stay married or be married to him. For every reason. He didn't curse her, he didn't say the angels will curse you if you don't accept my um request. He, he understood she didn't want to stay married and then he let her go back to her family and he even gave, he told her companion to give her two gifts, two pieces of linen, as like a gift for her and her family. Now, this is an example that when you look at the life of the Prophet peace be upon him he never once hit, coerced, abused or forced himself upon any woman.
Speaker 1:Now, for whatever reason, a lot of Muslims, they don't really teach this side of the sunnah. They only speak about those isolated hadiths which, yes, encourage men I mean encourage women to comply with the husband's request for intimacy. But they also don't talk about the other hadiths where the Prophet peace be upon him is telling men to not fall upon your wives like animals, like, do not be inconsiderate in the bedroom, in the bedroom. They don't talk about the hadith where the prophet was speaking to Jabir, a newly married man, and said don't enter your house in the night, give your wife some time so she can groom herself, that she can be ready for you. They don't talk about the hadiths that talk about, before you're intimate, send messengers of sweet words and kisses again, the importance of foreplay, and this is all for the woman's benefit, it's not really for the man. So again, when we're talking about or speaking about these hadiths, so you have some hadiths that you could say are directed towards women, about ensuring that they, to the best of their ability, comply with their husband's request, but also hadiths to men, telling them that they should be attentive, considerate to the psychological, emotional and physical needs of their wives.
Speaker 1:Now, again, I think many of us speaking us of course I'm a muslim we have done somewhat of a disservice, because that side of the sunnah not a lot of people, not a lot of people know. So when we think about what it means to be a husband, what it means to be a romantic partner, what it means to be a loving and attentive spouse, we often think about Hollywood or Bollywood or Nollywood. We don't think about the Messenger of Allah, the world argued, was the most romantic man to ever walk, the messenger of allah, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who, I'd argue, was the most romantic man to ever walk the face of this earth. This was a man who was and you have to understand the time that he was living in a very, a lot of machismo, a lot of misogyny. This was someone who spoke out in defense of women.
Speaker 1:This was a man who, when women went to complain that they were being abused by their husbands, he was speaking out against the men. This was a man who who was, again, he was well informed until what was going on in his community, but he's also speaking out in defense of women. Now, unfortunately, for whatever reason, I don't think we see that as much in our communities and that's why a lot of women they go into marriages or they're fearful of marriages because they're thinking I'm going to marry, you know, like a pharaoh, and this is going to be justified in the name of Islam, and I've even heard where people have used the story of Asya, the wife of Firaun, to say that if you're being abused in your marriage, you should suffer in silence, like Asya, because Allah will reward you. And I'm like where are you getting this from?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 3:So he's assuming he's a Pharaoh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they said that your role model is Asya, the wife of Fir'aun, and the way Asya in the Quran, in Surah Tahrim, the 66th chapter. How she was patient.
Speaker 3:Some imams have said that women should also be patient, and this is why a lot of problems imams.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so even when we talk about sexual violence against women and girls, a lot of men are not cognizant of that.
Speaker 1:This is actually prevalent in many Muslim communities and this is a problem. So and again, it might be because, as men, generally we speak amongst men, so we know about male issues, and then women again, of course, they speak amongst women to know about women issues, because we don't hear the other side of the story. So a lot of men if you speak to a lot of men, what are they worried about story. So a lot of men if you speak to a lot of men, what are they worried about? And that's why a lot of men are attracted to red pill. They're worried about getting married and if she divorces me, she's going to take half of my money, not allow me to see my kids, because they've heard horror stories. But then you. But they don't hear about the abuse not only the sexual abuse, the financial abuse, emotional abuse that many women have been subjected to by people who are knowledgeable as well, and that people have used the deen to oppress women. So this is something that when you actually read and study the tradition and study the son of the prophet, muhammad, peace upon you. Don't find that, but you do find some interpretations that have crept in and some of them they've been influenced by ancient greek misogyny, judo-christian misogyny as well. As there are a number of unreliable and fabricated hadiths that many Muslim preachers will still narrate, like this whole idea that the throne of Allah will shake when there's a divorce. The hadith is not authentic but you still hear people talking about it, the most hated of halal things inside of Allah's divorce. The hadith is not authentic, it's weak. Some scholars will still say it's acceptable to narrate because they believe the meaning is sound. That hadith that um, when a if a woman were to leave the husband's house without the? Um husband's permission, that allah and angels will curse her until she returns and the husband is pleased with her. That hadith is fabricated, but I've still heard muslim preach and teach that hadith. So again, this is a problem is that when you? So that's why a number of scholars, um, especially some Hanafi scholars I studied with they're all quite sceptical about some of the hadiths.
Speaker 1:He described them as like tension reports. He didn't say they're outrightly misogynistic, but some problematic hadiths, because some of those hadiths, even their apparent meaning, gave this impression that women have no rights or are inferior to men, and also some hadiths that they might be interpreted incorrectly. So because of that, a number of scholars that were refrained from citing those hadiths, like a number of erotologists, they wouldn't cite a lot of those hadiths in their manuals, because a lot of those books were encouraging men to be better husbands, better lovers to their spouses. Now, if you want to teach men to be good husbands, good lovers, attentive and companions to their spouses, sometimes if you were to give a hadith that they might not understand the meaning, it's better not to narrate it. And this is not anything new. Some people might say oh, you're hiding knowledge. It's not a case of hiding knowledge. You have to speak to people according to their intellect.
Speaker 1:And Imam Malik as well. He was known that he didn't narrate every hadith that he heard because there were a number of hadiths that were problematic. So that's why he would say I just won't narrate it. I'm not going to say it's completely wrong. It might have been said, but I don't know understand the context, but because apparent meaning can be problematic, I would prefer not to narrate the hadith now because of the democratization of knowledge and we've got internet, so a lot of these hadiths are available.
Speaker 1:This is why it's causing a big fitment, because people say, oh, this is in bukhari, this is in muslim. So someone is hearing this and of course we don't want to reject hadith. And people will say are you rejecting something? The Prophet peace be upon him said this like no, I'm not rejecting anything. The Prophet peace be upon him said or did I'm rejecting that understanding or that, meaning that I don't think it's in line with what the Quran and the Prophet peace be upon him brought. So this is just having a very nuanced understanding, and one doesn't necessarily need to have studied for many years.
Speaker 1:But just if something doesn't sound right, I'm not just to think, okay, let me just put that on the side until I get a better understanding. I just think that as muslims, we need to encourage critical thinking as well, because a lot of us are professionals, a lot of us have got a mind allah has given us a mind to use, but but for whatever reason, sometimes we feel that when you hear something that goes against like rationale, that this doesn't sound right, we all of a sudden think, okay, I have to suspend that my intellect and think, okay, no, I'm just going to accept it and if you again study, you hear a number of. There are different opinions, like I've said, but what people to you know tell you one opinion and say this is according to quran and sunnah. But the question is according to quran and sunnah? According to whose interpretation? Because I can give you so many interpretation from scholars have said about one particular issue. So this is why one has to be very careful when, and especially where, people are using hadiths or using certain verses or interpretations or opinions from scholars which could turn people away from islam.
Speaker 1:And that's something that, again, especially with the male female relations and um the whole idea of that women can't refuse their husbands in the bedroom, when I've just gave you a couple of examples where, during the time of the prophet peace upon me he didn't enforce himself on a woman. That shows that women do have the right to say no to the husband. That shows that men should be attentive to their wife's needs. And again that I just wanted to make sure. I say that because I don't think even myself I've spoken about this topic enough and I've um been told um that I need to kind of address this.
Speaker 1:For me, this was common sense, like, of course in our religion. Our religion is a religion of justice. Our religion is a religion of mercy. The prophet muhammad, peace be upon him, was sent as a mercy to mankind. To think that he would allow or endorse men to force himself on their wives, it's just like completely inconceivable. And if I'm completely honest with you, like before I started studying and taking the religion more seriously when I was dating and what have you that would never come into my mind or any of my friends mind this idea you could force yourself on your wife.
Speaker 1:When I started to become a bit more religious and study, I'm hearing brothers saying that, yeah, islamically you're allowed to do that, and I'm like it didn't sit well, but because at the time I hadn't studied, I was just thinking. Even in Jahiliyyah, so to speak, no one even thought that that was even allowed or acceptable. But now I'm amongst people who are religious and knowledgeable and they're trying to justify that islamically this is allowed because this scholar said this and that scholar and again sometimes and there's a beautiful hadith that I always like to remind myself and others with is the prophet, peace be upon him, said consult your heart, even if everyone has given you a fatwa right? So if you want to know what is right, if you know what is good, a lot of times you can call yourself your heart. You don't always have to.
Speaker 1:Oh, but this scholar said this. This scholar said that it's like, if it doesn't sound right, if it doesn't fit right within your, within your soul, that's probably not. That's probably not correct, and our dean is a dean of fitra and that's something that I think, as muslims, sometimes we lose sight of that, because when we talk about marriage, it's about rights and responsibilities. This is my rights we don't look at marriage as a relationship.
Speaker 1:The same way you've got friendships, like non-romantic relationship, like your friendship, you don't look about, think about those relationships as my rights, that if my friend doesn't respond to my salam within three days, that's haram and I'm good, you don't think about a lot of that. But there's a hadith that said you can't go more than three days without responding salam to your brother and things like that, or your sister. But when it comes to male, female relationships, I think because many of us haven't had or maybe seen healthy relationships, it's very transactional. So the man views as as long as I'm provided financially, you have to provide for me sexually. And and if you study, fit by itself without ethics, you can come to that understanding. If I'm honest with you, because the way some of our folk have described marriage again, they're speaking from a legal perspective. So they're speaking as lawyers, they're speaking as solicitors. So the way marriage is defined as in a man gives a woman a mahar in exchange for sexual access, while also he provides financial maintenance. So this idea is very transactional, but that's from a purely legal perspective. Now, if you look at how marriage is described in the Quran, which I alluded to earlier, it's based on love, it's based on mercy, it's based on tranquility a totally different paradigm. If we look at how marriage was understood during the time of the Prophet, monks and companions, they didn't have this legalistic mindset that many of us, I think, suffer from nowadays, where, as one of my friends, he described it that a lot of Muslims in the West were struggling Our understanding of Islam is Islam by technicalities as opposed to Islam by principles. So that's why you will find a lot of these issues, that these hadiths and these opinions that people will take, or maybe in isolation, and think that this is what is islamic.
Speaker 1:And uh, sorry, I think I went on a bit too much, but I just think this should underpin our understanding of like what islam is, because it's a lived religion. It's not just about rules and regulations without any morals and ethics. And, um, I was listening to a podcast recently and the brother said they're talking about polygamy and second marriages and things like that. And the brother said oh, islam. He said, islamically, I do not need to seek my first wife's permission to take a second wife. Then the other brother interjected and said no, it's. Although islamically that's okay, ethically I wouldn't do that and even that statement I was like that sounds so problematic because it's as if, islamically, I could do something which is wrong, but ethically, because I'm moral and I'm ethic, I wouldn't do that. So it's like ethics is above islam. I was like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:Your understanding of islam is completely, completely different. If the most moral and ethical thing to do is one thing, that's what is islamic. But because our understanding of what is islam Islamic is based on legalistic fit by itself. That's why they'll take what is permissible in a legalistic percent. That is what is Islamic. And, again, that's why we need to broaden our understanding of what Islam is, what the Sharia is. That is a code that governs ethics and your legal rulings. It's not just a case of your legality, and that's something that, unfortunately, a number of muslims we get stuck in the legalities of okay, this scholar said this, this fatwa says such and such.
Speaker 3:Therefore it's islamic and it's allowed when, even though you know inherently it's wrong, you still think you've got license or permission to do something which totally contradicts the spirit of the law you touched on so many things, so many things that we want to dive in honestly, like just this one topic you're talking about, like we can dedicate an entire episode and it just reminds me of a conversation Zaid and I were having, was it yesterday or the day before, about, like, how some scholars they shy away, whether intentionally or unintentionally, from important topics that, like, touch the lives of muslims today and instead focus on topics that have been mainstream over mainstream, whether it's like wiping on the socks or no, or whatever. Yeah and or nawaqad al wudu or whatever, and it is safe, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And another thing you touched upon is how some people they might read a few books, listen to a few lectures and think that now they are a scholar and start giving fatwa left and right.
Speaker 2:If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't know where to seek help, let us help you. We can be your personal matchmakers. Visit us at halalmatchca and book a free call with us. How, as a lay person, can we understand those hadiths that you mentioned, given that they are authentic, like the one you just mentioned about a woman as dogs or something along those lines, and you mentioned that it is in Bukhari, so we can't just overlook it. But so how do we process that as a layperson?
Speaker 1:sorry, just for clarification. Hadim doesn't say women are dogs sorry those few pieces I couldn't remember no, but it's good you said that because that was something as soon as Aisha may or may not be pleased to have heard that she was like you're comparing us to like dogs, because straight.
Speaker 1:No, but it's good you said that because that was something. As soon as Aisha may Allah be pleased with her heard that, she was like you're comparing us to dogs, because straight away she was like that doesn't sound right Now, even coming to your question, which is a very important question as a layperson, someone who's a non-specialist, and even what you said, and this is something that, and that's why forgive me if I kind of went on a bit of a rant, but to try and explain that because a hadith is in Bukhari, because a hadith is in Muslim, because a hadith is authentic, the apparent meaning doesn't necessarily mean that that is according to the sunnah. So I'm saying not that I'm rejecting a hadith, but the apparent meaning doesn't necessarily, because you need to understand the context in which it was said. So a number of hadiths that I mentioned in Bukhari, there's a hadith, for example, a controversial hadith that says, if it wasn't for the children of Israel, meat would never go off, and this is an authentic hadith.
Speaker 1:And if it wasn't for Hawa, Eve, the wife of Adam, no woman would betray her husband, and this is a very problematic hadith. And it's given an indication as if Hashim-Allah, that Eve betrayed Adam, and this is again, this is from the Judah Christian tradition. So you even have hadiths that even some scholars will question is that actually from the Prophet peace be upon him or is that from? Because you have some hadiths that from some scholars who, or some muslims who converted to islam and then some of the companions even narrated from them and that's known to this.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying anything that's controversial, but my point is that yeah when you're taking a hadith or reading a hadith or you're hearing something from the minbar, if it sounds a bit off, it doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to accept it or take it. So something like is controversial. Like the age of aisha may allah be pleased with her, whatever ages allah knows best. I know the reports in bukhari muslim. I personally don't personally believe that she was six or nine and I've got reasons for that. But my point is that just because hadith is in bukhari, bukhari is not quran. Maybe you need to understand that bukhari is not quran. The compilation of hadith in bukhari is not equivalent to the Quran. And if you study even like, for example, imam Abu Hanifa, right, he didn't accept the hadith of stoning for adulterers and a lot of Muslims don't know that. So a lot of Muslims will say, oh, that's Islamic. The other three schools accept it. He didn't accept it. And when people used to go to him and say you, are you Rejecting hadiths? Are you rejecting Some of the proper pieces Of what I'm said? He said I'm not rejecting Some of the proper pieces Of what I'm said, I'm rejecting what people have said. That he said I don't believe. He said it's a big difference. So it's a big difference. Muslims, we need to understand that there are different approaches, even amongst the four schools, when we're talking about asulul fiqh, when they're looking at hadith. So, because a hadith is authentic, if you look at the Hanafi position, especially early Hanafi scholars, every hadith, even if it's authentic, they will see whether it's aligned with the Quran. If it's not aligned with the Quran, they won't take the hadith. So when you say a hadith is authentic, basically what you're saying, according according to hadith scholars is that it fulfills the conditions of being connected. The people are trustworthy X, y and Z. But then there's also an approach by the fuqaha, which is a Muslim jurist. They want to know that the text of the hadith. Is it aligned with the Quran? If it's not, then they might say it's abrogated, they might say it's a specific person. So again, I'm just saying, as muslims and this is something that, as a laborer, I think we can all understand you don't necessarily, like I said, need to study for a number of years, but I'm just saying, if you're hearing something and it doesn't sound right, just leave it. I'm not saying that reject the hadith or go on the spree and say I'm, I reject, no, I'm not quran. You and I.
Speaker 1:I accept hadiths, but you have to understand that there are a number of hadiths that for hundreds of years many scholars have found some hadiths to be problematic. So that's why some scholars will try and reconcile as much as possible, or they will leave it, or they will say that might be for a specific context and this, this and the other, but the hadiths about, again, relation to women, because these have real-life implications and this is maybe something I wanted to touch on. I was saying, even when you're speaking to a potential spouse, what is their understanding of that hadith? Because there are some men who don't take that, even the hadith. They don't take the hadith. As that's my license, I can force myself on my wife, right, there's some men that will listen to hadith and say, okay, I know the prophet peace be upon him said or may have said it, but I don't understand the meaning, so I'm just going to leave it like that and that's all going to impact how they view women.
Speaker 1:So that's why it's not the hadith in question, that's the issue is how it's been interpreted or, I would argue, misinterpreted by a number of muslims. Because that's one of the crux of the matter, because you're not going to be able to. These are issues that have been going on for the last 1200 years. We're not going to resolve it now, but everyone's going to have the same understanding. But it's important that whoever you inshallah marry, what are their understandings of some of these hadiths?
Speaker 1:Because, like I said, if you meet a brother especially for the sisters who has this understanding that Islam gives me the right I can force myself on, or my wife, or islam gives me the right that you cannot work, you cannot do this, you cannot do that, and that's his opinion. That's fine. But if he believes that and it's islamic right, you want to know that in the beginning, and this is just as important as as anything else. So that's why, for me, it's not the hadiths in question which is is the issue is how some people understand them and also how they would like to implement those hadiths in their lives. Because some brothers, even when people talk about like gender roles this is the man's role, this is the woman's role. It's not clear, kind of quran and sunnah, when people say this is yes, the man is supposed to be provided. That's clear. But in terms of, is a woman's role. She has to cook and clean, but tell me where that says, where that's mentioned it's sad how much culture has dominated.
Speaker 2:You know the standing of islam, whether it's in the search of a spouse, whether it's marriage itself. It's really sad yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm glad you talked about the conversation that should happen before marriage takes place, which takes me to the next question. So we know the most common problems that lead to divorce are finances and bedroom problems. Now what would you say, from your knowledge and experience, the most common bedroom problems? And Now, what would you say, from your knowledge and experience, the most common bedroom problems and how can two potential spouses avoid it from the beginning?
Speaker 1:Great question. Great question. Yeah, I agree and, like what you said, I think there's reasons for divorces financial issues and intimacy issues. With intimacy issues, from what I've studied and learned and speaking to other sex educators and sex therapists, a lot of it comes down to A what is known as desire discrepancy, where one partner wants intimacy more than the other. So there's like a discrepancy there.
Speaker 1:Two infidelity, like zina, um, adultery um, and then obviously there's also incompatibility, also in the bedroom. Now, especially with the first and the third one, because obviously no one's making any? Um excuses for for infidelity. That's completely haram. And again, if a woman has been cheated on, a man's been cheated on, you know their wealth and their right to to annul that marriage. That allah knows best.
Speaker 1:But in terms of the first and the third one, in terms of desire discrepancy and incompatibility in the bedroom, this can be alleviated prior to marriage in terms of understanding what is one's sexual expectations, because a lot of people their expectations about intimacy is, I'd argue, unrealistic, and that's because many people have been misinformed about sex and intimacy by pornography by their friends, by even some traditions that they might have heard of, or by some interpretations that what the religion says. So because of that, they go into the bedroom expecting. So if you're a man and you're, you know, a man you know you maybe not had any interactions prior to marriage and then you're all of a sudden expecting your wife is always going to be readily available for you, you know, in the bedroom, apart from when she's menstruating. It's just like. It's very unrealistic, right, and you might have heard this or expected this. And then also there are some women who believe that intimacy is and should be painful and that's just normal for them and that's also my, my, that's also what they've maybe been told by some female members in their family, that that's what intimacy is. You're just supposed to bear it, but allah will give you reward by giving you children, and so it's not fulfilling and pleasurable for them. So this is so. This is a lot of miseducation that people get prior marriage and and during marriage.
Speaker 1:Now again, how one can alleviate this or resolve this is having very honest and frank questions prior to marriage in terms of what is their understanding, like you mentioned earlier, about male-female relations in terms of intimacy, in terms of in the bedroom, in terms of what are complete red flags have someone had? What is their understanding about male-female desire Because, again, a lot of men, our understanding about sexuality is often based on our a male perspective, not understanding the female perspective about sexuality and how that works, not understanding that if a woman lacks desire for whatever reason, that's perfectly fine. And I mentioned this in the previous podcast, where I'll put up a post on instagram where I mentioned 12 different reasons why your wife might avoid intimacy, and I mentioned various reasons might be hormonal imbalance, might be stress, it might be trauma, it might be, um you know, busy thinking about other things and all the rest of it. And a number of brothers messaged me privately and they were saying the reason why I thought my wife would be refusing intimacy is because she's cheating on me and I thought, if she's, if she's a good Muslim woman, that she would be provided for. Of course, she would want to have intimacy with me. And a number of the brothers some of them were married, some of them wasn't married I'm like, where are you getting this from? Oh, but the hadith says you know that's a good Muslim woman who always complies with her husband, this, and it's just like. Number one you're taking some of those hadiths out of context. Number two I don't know what la la land you're living in or who you're listening to, but that's just not. That's not reality.
Speaker 1:But a lot of people have these understandings about what, what it is to be a wife and a good muslim wife and things like that, and and this is also very problematic, you know, and again, that's why, and also if someone has such expectations, it's important that one has these open, honest conversations prior to marriage and even understanding. Okay, what's your understanding about consent? There's a number of brothers who don't think consent is a thing. They don't even believe that a man can force himself on his wife. It doesn't exist, like this whole idea of rape. It's important that people have those honest conversations because if one is not even aware of these things, although it doesn't want to learn, and then and they think, oh, unless a woman clearly says no and she's jumping, fighting into me, that means she's always in the mood, and if I'm even, if she's petrified and she's frozen, they don't understand about flight or flight or, um, what's called flight or fright. They don't understand.
Speaker 2:But these concepts?
Speaker 1:yeah, they are, they might be having interruption flight or flight, sorry flight, or um, what's called flight or fright? They don't understand. But these concepts flight, yeah they are. They might be having inter flight or flight sorry flight or flight. Thank you, they might. They might be having relationships, but they might not be aware that their spouse is not actually enjoying these relationships. Is there's one thing having intimate relationships and there's another thing in drain intimate relationships? So this is something that, and again, there's one thing being married and there's another thing being um, in love. And again, even as muslims, even what you know we talk about, like marriage in islam or what type of, even one, the question I asked my brother. I asked him he said you know, I want to be, you know, have x amount of wives and this, and that was okay. I think it was maybe like 21 or something. I was like okay.
Speaker 3:Sounds nice.
Speaker 1:And he said you know, I want to have mashallah and I want to revive the sun and have like fearful wives. I was like, okay, and then I said so, what type of marriage do you want? I asked him, and he said you know, I want one of my wives to be like inshallah may Allah be pleased with her. Another one to be like Umm Salama. Okay, I said so, you want a marriage like Khadija? And he said yeah, I want one of my wives to be like Khadija. She's going to live with me. I said okay, great. I said so, you want a monogamous marriage. Then he said what do you mean? I said you're the proper piece of it. He was monogamous with Khadija. He didn't marry any other woman whilst he's with her, for is it over 25 years? And he's like, yeah, but that's different. I want one khadija, one alisha, I want um salama. And I was like you can't pick and choose what you want. And I said, even if you look at, and even as muslims, even as muslims, when you, we reflect, so, when one reflects on the prophet's peace peace upon him's marriage with Khadija and how he described what did he say, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, that I was nourished by her love. Her love gave me it's a beautiful expression in Arabic Allah has blessed me with her love. This is something that when someone thinks about it, it's just like if you want that type of relationship and I think most people are going to be obviously monogamous relationship, I would argue the most fulfilling and the greatest love story in Islam and the greatest marriage was probably Salah's marriage with Khadija. There was no room for anyone else and you can have a very fulfilling Marriage with that. But some brothers will getting oftentimes ego and things oh, we want to be polygamous and it's just like okay, but we're understanding polygamy and even understanding okay, if if that's your intention, that also should be spoken up before marriage as well. Like this whole idea of I can get a second wife without telling my first one. This is something that. Or if the woman wants to stipulate in the contract that if you take a second wife, then I'm out, or at least tell me beforehand. Let's have this discussion. What do you think about marital counselling? You know, having premarital counselling, the services that you offer and things like that.
Speaker 1:Having this open on this conversation is very important because this is all about compatibility. It's not saying this person is right, this person is wrong. This is a bad man, this is a bad woman. I'm not saying that, but a lot of these issues and they come into your question, um, try to answer in a long-winded way it's a lot of it's about compatibility. So a lot of these issues, like I mentioned, the three issues of desire, discrepancy, infidelity and incompatibility a lot of those can be resolved if they have healthy communication, especially prior to entering into the relationship to the marriage.
Speaker 1:Because a number of people go into marriage blindsided. They just say, oh mashallah, he's a good brother, he's got a good beard. You know, he prays in the masjid, he gives khusbah now and again. She's a good sister, mashallah. She only wears black and brown. She doesn't wear any other colour. Hijab is always on point some point. So she's, everything is great.
Speaker 1:It's just like you might be incompatible as people and for whatever reasons outside of islamic framework, people can navigate healthy relationships with, like maybe their work colleagues or friends who might be of opposite sex. But as soon as islam is brought into the picture you talk about marriage people become like very afraid to have these honest conversation in a to try. And am I actually compatible with this person? It's like no, we can't ask this question. Everything because of haya, because of modesty. And then I always ask the question that people have this understanding. So you're comfortable talking to Sally and Mary and Jack and David and knowing whether you're compatible in terms of friends or whatever. But as soon as you bring Islamlam, all of a sudden it's like no, I have to be higher and it's like a lot of it for me is performative piety, because I don't buy it. And um and I mentioned earlier when we spoke before, a lot of it is um.
Speaker 1:A number of brothers in particular have this like sexual schizophrenia that they suffer from that if they speak to, if they see a non-muslim woman, they can be a human being, they can see as a human being. But so as soon as they see a muslim woman, they can be a human being, they can see as a human being. But so as soon as they see a muslim woman wearing a hijab, oh my god, I start for the lion, it's like I have to know my gaze, I can't talk to her. And the brother's like, oh my god, you know, it's just like some of it, I mean, when I was in my teenage years, I've oh mashallah, but they may get older, you realize a lot of it is just performative, or some people believe this is what is islamic. And it's like, again, if you're dealing with adolescents, you know, like I've got their hormones all over their place, fair enough. But when you're dealing with adults who've had some life experience, who've know how to interact with opposite sex, now to infantilize them and make it out like they cannot communicate with opposite sex, otherwise they're going to, you know, it's just you. You we're not being honest with ourselves, because these people, both male and female alike, are able to navigate by themselves in the real world.
Speaker 1:But as soon as you bring islam in the picture, people feel like, oh, I can't ask this question or I can't find out about. And again, you need to find out what's important to you. If something's important to you, if you're worried about a red pill, right. If you're worried about, okay, then ask this question. If you're worried about feminism, or she's going to be radical feminist or she's going to take, ask these questions. And these are, you know, very important questions that one one should have and ask because this is going to be important for your relationship, for your marriage.
Speaker 1:If this isn't really important, then you don't need to ask that question. So that's why, for me again, that's why I'm trying to underpin a lot of this by talking about the religion is more malleable and flexible. The way compared to the way people made it like a straitjacket that people feel really constricted. And it's just like this when, if you read again during the time of the prophet peace upon him and the companions a lot of these restrictions that we have, we have placed them upon ourselves and a lot of it has been. We've taken a model from a certain part of the world, usually from the East, from back home, and we're trying to adopt it in 21st century US, canada, uk and it's just not reality.
Speaker 2:A big thing that's playing a part in this is the extreme segregation that we've adopted in the West, the way segregation is implemented in masjids and schools, where you just don't even see the opposite gender. I mean Hiba, and I just did an entire video about this. I don't know if you saw it, but I feel like that's contributing a lot to this schizophrenia you're talking about, and it is a problem.
Speaker 3:Yeah, outside of the masjids they are like they mingle, whether it's in the mall or whatever in the restaurants. But when? They enter the masjid like astaghfirullah.
Speaker 1:You can't see the the opposite gender yeah, can I talk a little bit about that, that's. That's. That was something that really upset me, um, growing up, when I started to kind of practice because you know, because everyone you know, when I was um, my late teens, early 20s, you know the whole idea of iqtilaat and it's completely haram and it was like a pillar of islam, like free mixing was like a pillar of islam, completely segregated. And I was like, and again, like you said, outside of the mosque, outside of um, the islamic, the Islamic event or Islamic conferences, people are interacting. You go on a bus with men and women. All of a sudden, as soon as you go into like a halalist space, islamic space, you can't even turn your face towards a woman, like even not staring at her. It's like completely mamlua, it's completely haram.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that, again, what really troubled me was because, again, then how do you get to know a potential spouse? And the way people will say is like go and ask the imam and then he will find and it's just very artificial. And sometimes you're like pretending that, okay, you know, like you have these artificial meetings, but then outside of the masjid or Islamic space, you can interact and you don't always want to put yourself in a position where this is a very formal, formal meeting for marriage and now you might be talking with someone and you might know from the beginning, for whatever reason it might be attraction, it might be personality wise you're not interested. But now you're in a position where, okay, how can I? I don't want to ask too much information and personal information because I'm not interested, I don't want to pursue this. But I don't want to walk in and be like I'm not interested, okay, let's go, because you don't want to continue, you don't want to pursue.
Speaker 1:So you're also in this predicament and this is something which a number of our leaders, our imams and stuff who were strongly pushing this you know, free mixing and iqtilaat is haram and this and the other a number of them, especially in the uk and some that came from the us, wasn't in practicing this themselves. It is in that I had some teachers who were saying this is when I was in university it's haram to go to university because there's music, there's going to be women there, this, that and the other, and I almost dropped out of university, out of college at the time and some of my friends actually did out of religious sincerity, not realizing until maybe a few years later that a number of those people that were saying that they were taking their own children to university, sometimes in another country, and that's what really hurt me. It's like why are you making islam so difficult for us? But you yourself wasn't abiding by those rules and they were like oh, it's different because my children know the quran, my children understand the sunnah, this and the other. And this is where, again, if you look at a lot of the classical scholars, they wasn't quick to say this is haram, this is the way you should live your life, especially the terms of male-female interaction. They'll talk about like principles that avoid this and this and the other. But a number of these understanding and a lot of it, if I'm if I'm honest with you has come from a reaction to colonization and where a number of muslims, whether it was the salafi movement or the deobandi movement from from india, kind of reacted towards what they considered to be this, the westernization of the of the muslims they say were even more strict. And you had a number of like this, students or their children who are adopting those same type of understandings in the west. But it's not practical. That's why a number of those scholars and teachers that were saying this like 20 years ago they've somewhat changed their tune. But the reality is, but now they're still stuck in this framework of it has to be complete segregation in everything. So then it's like how do we now teach women where there's no barrier and because some people that can look at this is completely shocking. And then when you mention al-junitam the prophet, peace upon him that there was no, some people they find that difficult to believe that there's no barrier in the mosque.
Speaker 1:Or you talk about some of the narrations, the way men and women interacted with each other. They have this romanticized or idolized image of islam of the past. But when you actually study and read the reports, it wasn't as segregated the way many of us have been led to believe. But there's some stories that you read in the past. Right, it's very idyllic, but it's not reality. So you hear a story of this shaykh or this particular scholar. He was studying so much and then he just saw an ankle, a little bit of ankle, of a woman. Then he couldn't memorize anything for six months. Then all the.
Speaker 1:So you look at women as complete fitna, everything about them, their voices, and you have these opinions. No, you have these opinions. You know. You have these opinions that women are not allowed to go to the mosque because they're a fitna. If they're attractive, definitely not. If they're not attractive, then you can make an exception for them. You don't have to shake a woman's hands unless she's um, unless she's over a certain.
Speaker 1:So you do have these opinions, but you have to understand where it was coming from. You have scholars, up until recently, up until last 30 years, that were saying that you shouldn't teach women how to write, because if you teach them how to write, they're going to be starting to write love letters to men and that's going to cause fitna. Therefore, don't teach women how to write. Yes, this is, this is what happens to even many scholars in South Asia. It happens. So, understanding this, I can understand where they were coming from. They're coming from a good place. I'm not attacking them, but what they were saying, in the world that we're living in now, it's not practical. So those fatawa, those opinions might have been and happened in Northern Nigeria, where there were even more conservatives I'm from South, south, southern Nigeria, where it's a bit more relaxed my, my tribe but Northern Nigeria is more, which this gender segregation is firmly like, culturally, the norm. Where I'm from, it's not like that. So if even for myself, going to Northern Nigeria, it's like a very different culture, very different way of what is considered to be appropriate, inappropriate.
Speaker 1:I'll say one last thing. When went to um, uae a couple of weeks ago, and um, you know, mashallah, you see all of the men, like the emiratis, they're all dressed in a white thobe and the white and, of course, the head tie, the head wrap, and a lot of the women, like 95 percent of them, all fully black, right. And then I went into one area where there was all Emirati men and Emirati women and then everyone is all the men, like I said, all in white, all the women, all in black. I felt out of place, even though I wasn't wearing anything outrageous but just wearing a normal, like what I'm wearing now a shirt, a polo shirt and jeans. I just felt out of place, like what am I doing here? I felt like I was in um. I felt like I was in the matrix where everyone was dressed like um was the agent, whatever his name was. So then, um, and then there was one woman that walked amongst this group of women, all wearing black. There's one woman that wore she's wearing a black abaya, but then she just had some of it, like the lower half was white. Just the contrast. She stood out like a sofa.
Speaker 1:Now, in that context, I can understand why a scholar might say if you're wearing green or like, because culturally that's not the norm, that's you're going to unnecessarily attract attention. Do you understand what I mean? So that's what I'm saying that sometimes when you're reading a fatwa from one part of the world, they're speaking within a certain cultural context. Now, again, if that's a cultural norm that everyone wears white, then even a man comes out in a red top, that's you're gonna unnecessarily attract attention. So that's why they might say it's haram to wear red. Or if people the non-muslims were wearing red. So that's why, again, I think, as muslims, when you read or listen to people, you have to contextualize where they're coming from and they are also a product of their social cultural conditioning.
Speaker 1:And a number of scholars, especially um, that have studied abroad, you're in a bubble. So when I went to study and I was in egypt, we're in a bubble. So as much as we're studying these classical texts and things like that, we're not dealing with the everyday realities of of people and we're all amongst quote unquote practicing people. So we live a certain lifestyle and then you come to the uk or canada or the us and it's a big culture shock as well. You're not and not everyone's asking like the questions you're asking about cover and wiping your socks and like these technical questions. Like they're not asking these questions. They're asking real day issues in terms of.
Speaker 1:I'm interested in this sister. I'm going through these issues with my wife, blah blah blah, and a lot of them have not had the experience, expertise to deal with these issues and, to be fair, they shouldn't be put in that place, but because people see, oh, this is an imam, he's someone that's of deen, he's knowledgeable. Therefore, and I feel sorry for again, for a lot of people that just started and become like imam because the muslim community expects our imams to be a life coach, a therapist, a marriage counsellor, a YouTuber, a Bitcoin specialist, a sexologist Too many things. They expect them to have all of the answers. It's just like it's unrealistic. So I'm being honest that when I look at some of the questions that imams and Shaykhs and scholars receive, I'm like this is and they want an answer. They want an answer from the Quran and Sunnah. They want it to be able to apply to their life, and it's just like, oh, give me the solution.
Speaker 2:It's not that easy.
Speaker 1:But again, that's what I feel for a lot of the scholars and the Imams, because they, yeah, it's kind of pace and that's why a number of them will just go with the most conservative answer, because that's the easiest one. Because if I say, oh, in your situation this is allowed, or such and such, then everyone might take it as license for me to take that fatwa, and again, without people understanding or appreciating that. Even during the time of the Prophet peace be upon him there was one man who asked him him I'm married, can I kiss my wife? He said no. Another man asked him the same question. He said yes, and then people asked you know why is it? You gave two different answers.
Speaker 1:He said the first man was um, he, the first man, he the man that he allowed that he can kiss his wife. He was a man of, he was a mature man and he can control his desires. The other man, he was a young man. He felt it wouldn't be. He could control his desires. The other man, he was a young man. He felt that he wouldn't be able to control his desires. So he told him no, you can't kiss your wife, because he probably think that would lead to him having intimate relations and obviously nullify his fast. So that's an example that even during the time of the Prophet and the Companions sometimes they gave different answers to the same question depending on the context, but for whatever reason, as Muslims, and again as.
Speaker 1:Muslim community. We are educated people, we are not illiterate, but when it comes to the deen, we act as if we're like 10 year olds, what is quite problematic. And that's why the work that you're doing is very important, because you're taking the burden of a lot of like imams and masajids, because while siesta mosque is there to officiate and stuff like that, they're not necessarily there to be matchmakers. They're not necessarily because they don't have the expertise and that's why it's important that you have different organization experts like yourself who plug in those gap. And then the mosques and then the imams they can refer to professional, they can refer to specialist organization to say, no, you can, as a matchmaking service, go to ibn zaid, they can help you with that don't come to me with those type of issues, you know subhanallah, subhanallah.
Speaker 3:this reminds me of something that happened in the school of sharia. One of my professors was actually very honest with us and he said that it's true that we say shaking hands of a woman is haram. I don't't shake hands of a woman that's what I preach but when I go to conferences in Europe and I find myself in a situation where a woman is sticking her hand, I do shake her hand, and I very much respected his honesty.
Speaker 1:I'll share another story. Before I went to study in Egypt and I was studying a bit of Maliki Matha, but also, like, from a number of like Salafi scholars as well, and they were quite, you know, rigid and strict in the sense of, you know, everything is black and white and then, you know, studying, they said that a beard is is wajib. And you know, even though I've got like a struggle beard, that doesn't connect, but they're like, you know, you have to have a beard, otherwise if you don't, I don't have a beard. You're like a fasiq, you're like an immoral person, this and the other. So that was always my understanding. That was my understanding. Like, if you don't have a beard, you cannot even be a teacher, you're not a religious person. This was my understanding.
Speaker 1:Now, going to egypt, when I went studying in al-azhar and then one of the teachers, the teacher that came in I'm the professor of Sharia. He walked in, suited mashallah, nice tailored suit, walked in gel hair, you know, styled, no beard. I was horrified, I was like and I said to myself, I'm stuck. That was my mentality. I said I'm stuck, I'm just thinking. Like my mentality, my ignorance, was like I can't learn from this person, like this giant. That was my ignorance. Then he started to speak. I was blown away with his knowledge and then he was talking it all, even like, about, and then someone even asked a question. I was too shy to ask, but someone asked a question yeah, sheikh, you know where's your lichia, where's your beard? And then he answered in a way like, and explained it. It's not as straightforward. He spoke about you know, the different opinions amongst the great scholars, that it's not that everyone considered to be wajid, but again, for many of us at the time, we grew up believing in just one opinion, you know. That's why that also that's why I was struggling at the time to even take from this person until he actually educated me.
Speaker 1:And this is also something that a lot of muslims we're not aware of like the different opinions. We sometimes might hear one opinion which might be the most conservative and assume that's Islamic, and that's also a problem that we oftentimes side with the most conservative opinion. And even when I was, this was again when I was in Egypt, when I was looking to get married. At the time, some of the questions some of the sisters will ask is has does he wear a bed? Has he got a bed. If he hasn't got a bed that's longer than um a certain number of inches I'm not interested in because he's not religious.
Speaker 1:Or is he's thobe? Does he wear thobe every day? Or does he have his trousers, um? Does he wear his trousers below his ankles? If he does, then I'm not interested because he's not religious, and this was the meant. But this was what was considered to be a good Muslim, a good practice in Muslim, and again, it took a while for a number of people to get out of their mentality, because that is what we was taught. So, whereas nowadays alhamdulillah, I think you can correct me otherwise I think we people are now looking in terms of like character, personality and things like that, whereas before it was really just about outwards, like how does this person look?
Speaker 3:sorry to interrupt.
Speaker 1:I was just gonna say we still see it some girls reject guys only because they don't have the sunnah beard and girls put a beard as a deal-breaker and this is also a problem, because what happens if you've got, like I said, someone like myself who's got a struggle beard, who can't grow a proper beard? And even when I heard about like Imam Bukhari, may Allah be pleased with him when I heard, oh, like he didn't have a beard because he couldn't grow a beard no-transcript islam for dummies. It didn't work for everyone. It works for especially when you're newly practicing or quite when you're young and naive. But when you have some life experience and you realize that, like your teacher that you mentioned, they may say one thing or they may say this is what the traditional opinion is, but then you see him shaking hands and you're thinking with a woman and you think what's going on? You know? Because, again, it's not. It's not as black and white as the way people present it out to me, and this is also a big issue because you, I find a number of sisters who have these unrealistic expectations that they think because a brother has studied or is knowledgeable of the deen, or he's a hafidh of the Quran, he's memorized the Quran, he's going to be a good husband, he's going to be a good man, he's going to be honest and upright.
Speaker 1:You'd hope that's the case, but that's not the reality. And this also can affect people's religion, because some women they go into marriage thinking because he's a person of deen, he's practicing all of his behavior, behavior is going to be in line with the sunnah and it's just like. For me, that's an unrealistic expectation. You should have done your due diligence. You should have even seen whether you're compatible with this person. Just because this person has a sunnah beard, just because this person wears a thawb, just because this person has a miswork and he uses it every now and again, or says, yeah, I mean mashallah, that doesn't mean he's a good practicing brother. No, it's true, because it's like no one.
Speaker 1:And the Quran, the hadith doesn't say that. It doesn't say that because someone's memorized the Quran or studied abroad or knows a bit of Arabic, they are going to be a good husband or they're going to be completely faithful and ethical. And that's something that, again, as Muslims, we need to empower ourselves with knowledge. Not just, yes, we understand the religious knowledge and understanding the quran and the hadith and things like that, but in terms of how one lives their life according to the best of the best of the ability, according to the teachings of the religion. That's something totally different and I just think that, like I said, I just don't like to infantilize people. Some of the truths I might say might be uncomfortable on people because they still want to live in Islamic Disneyland, but I just think there's a lot of negatives that can come out of it, especially if it doesn't work for that person, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we just fail to realize how much flexibility there is within Islam. And then, when I like, there's one verse that really stuck with me and we use it a lot in our workshops, which is most a part of a verse um that allah puts. It says it himself that he doesn't want to make this religion a burden. Yet we go out of our way to make the religion more difficult than it actually is when Allah says it himself. So it's just amazing. And there's one more point that I wanted to add, and I think it's a hadith by the Prophet peace be upon him where he said that if there is one fitna that I've left for my ummah, it is women. I've left for my ummah, it is women. Now, some people may translate the word fitna as difficulty or tribulation, but correct me if I'm wrong. That's translated as test, right? And of course women are a test for men. So is there anything else you can add to that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. I'm glad you mentioned that hadith. What's really interesting is that the prophet, peace be upon him and the hadith he said the greatest fitna for men is women. Right, and that's an authentic hadith. But there's also another hadith which says the greatest fitna for his ummah is wealth, and all muslims don't really talk about that. So again, I understand the things in their context.
Speaker 1:Now, again, like you said, in terms of the hadith in question about the greatest fitment for men is women, a number of people, again, they can take different approaches or understand it of that. That and again, women's white fitna is translated usually in this context as a trial, a tribulation, a test, and one can look in a in a good way or bad way. You can look in the sense of okay, women are responsibility, because as a man, you're supposed to be responsible of your women, whether it's your, your wife, your children, your, you know female daughters, even your mother. You're supposed to be responsible. So it can be fit and fit. Others can take it to another extreme and like totally sexualize, in the sense of about sexual sexuality and lust. And because women are the biggest fit, now I can't be near a woman, I can't speak to her, because if a man is alone with a woman, the third person, she tells everything. You look at women as a complete fit. Now woman's voice is a fit now. That's why it's better that they don't speak, especially we don't educate them, because they can start writing love letters and people take it to that extreme and unfortunately, within our tradition you do find that some scholars have taken it to that extreme. And because of that excessive um isolation and control, trying to control women, then what you find this can be quite uncomfortable for many muslims to hear. That the reality is.
Speaker 1:Then you found a number of those muslim communities that a number of those men were starting to desire younger boys. They were lost after young boys, the amarat, I'm sure here. But you've probably heard about the tradition of men lost after young boys, the Amrad, I'm sure you've probably heard about the tradition of men lost after young boys and that was because we have extreme segregation and you still have some of the communities even today, where you have men who are lost after young boys and they even prefer young boys to have relations with other women. And there's a tradition it's not a hadith, of course. There's a tradition. It's not a hadith, of course. There's a tradition that says that women are for children, boys are for desire, boys are for pleasure. This is completely not Islamic but happens in many Muslim communities and one of the reasons, I would argue, is because of when you have a complete gender segment, like very extreme, where women are just completely not seen, then you start to actually desire.
Speaker 1:Maybe you can come up, you can um, that desire can manifest itself in some perverse ways and has happened in our tradition, in our tradition and in some of our communities and, for whatever reason, a lot of Muslims are uncomfortable to kind of address and talk about that. And you do find, especially if you go to certain Muslim communities some communities don't have very strict gender segregation, others do, but you find where they have very strict gender segregation, you find a lot of sexual perversion comes out of different forms and it could be like, again, sexual abuse towards, um, children. It could be that they had just petrified of women. And again, this is something that, especially if we're living in the west, you're going to be around women and always make out like, yes, we know the west is hypersexualized, but if you read history, there was hypersexualization in many of the Muslim communities in Andalusia of a lot of the women who were enslaved, so this isn't really new. But again, unfortunately, we'd like to romanticize the past and make it out like oh, I can't believe it.
Speaker 1:And men have this warped idea that they can't. If there's a woman and she's not wearing a hijab, they can't control themselves. Where are you getting that? Because this is an insult to men. It's a thank you. I'm glad you said it's an insult to men, but because a lot of men they co-sign the idea that I can't control myself, then you're taking accountability from yourself.
Speaker 1:So when they hear stories of men who have molested women or abused women, they will then say what was she wearing? What did she do, rather than holding a man accountable. This is a problem. So they'll take an Islamic concept of this is why a man should be alone with a woman. The Prophet warned about this. But there's going to be times when you're going to be alone with a woman, but still, the onus is on you. When Yususuf alayhi salam was alone with the woman, he still ran away from the woman. It's not all because I'm alone with you. You're beautiful, you. I'm in a rich house, I'm a slave, I can't resist you. Therefore, no, there's still accountability on you as a man, but that's not being taught.
Speaker 1:We teach female accountability. We don't teach male accountability and as a man, I'm aware of that. We have to have to be very honest and say that it's a, it's a privilege that we have as men but for whatever reason, we don't like to kind of own up and address it and talk about it. The same way, we can accuse white people of like white privilege and this, that and the other, but as men we also have privilege. But we just kind of make it out like it's always the woman's fault and this is why a woman needs a wali. And the reality is most people don't have a lot of lot of Muslims, do not have that support group, do not have that perfect scenario. So when you hear these cases of again men taking advantage of women, when I hear something like the Islamic preachers or shaykhs or imams talk, it's always oh, that's why if we was living in an Islamic state, this will never happen, because men would not be alone with women.
Speaker 1:And it's just like yeah oh, and that's what allah says avoid zina. And it's like, yes, allah, they say, avoid zina. But also allah said avoid, avoid the um, the wealth of orphans. But still people will take advantage and exploit. So it's just having a realistic understanding that unfortunately, like I said, whatever reason in I've noticed in more non-muslim majority countries, muslims have this idolized image of Islam. But when you go to Muslim majority countries, they don't have that. If you go to West Africa, north Africa, the Middle East, south Asia, they don't have these idolized. They know what Islam says, but they deal with realities because they're dealing with Muslims. They know that just because a Muslim has studied in Dar al-Ulm or studied in Azhar, or studied in Al-Azhar or studied in Medina, it doesn't mean they're righteous, it doesn't mean I can trust them, but in the West we have this, oh masha'Allah, because this person studied abroad. They're completely sincere. Therefore, we don't need to think about any protocols or check them and it's just like who told you this? So this naivety that we fall into, I would argue, is we have brought into this idolized image of Islam that the Quran and the Sunnah never speak about. It doesn't exist in Muslim lands, but because many of us are detached from Islam, our practice. In reality, in different Muslim communities we have this, you know, this halo effect that we put on anyone. And again, this is not to make people feel suspicious of every Imam or religious person, but no, it's like they're human beings. But accountability, it should be placed on individuals and I think we don't have no issue placing accountability on the woman. But accountability on the man is something that, for every reason, a number of muslims find that very difficult to have.
Speaker 1:And another quick story I'll share I was listening to a podcast and there was a chef who was talking about how there was a woman fully dressed in abaya and I think she was even wearing a niqab. She was walking with her father in the shop, remote and there were some men who was catcalling this woman and the father said to his daughter look what you're bringing, look what shame you're bringing. Go in the car. This is why I don't want to take you out. This is the mentality. This is so called religious people you've got. You've got men. That is even so disrespectful. They shouldn't be doing it in respect of the father the father's there or not but even in front of a woman that's fully covered. That shouldn't even make a difference. But even though she's fully covered and she's with her father, yeah, still the father couldn't correct the men. It's like why this is why you shouldn't come out of the house, this is why you should stay in the car, and this is, unfortunately, the mentality that a number of Muslims have.
Speaker 1:We have to be honest that this, so this mentality, that again, because women are fit now, um, I'm probably showing my age, but I remember like 20 plus years ago, going to Islamic events, women could ask a question. If we talk this, this type of conversation completely not allowed, like you have a human showing their face, stop people. People would be like they'll lose their minds at the most, just to write on a piece of paper, send it to zayn, say, do them read it, but then read it in a way that doesn't mimic a woman. She can't even laugh. The broken telephone yeah, this is Islam and it's just like really.
Speaker 1:And then, when people will mention there was a woman who even went to the Prophet peace be upon him and offered herself in marriage in front of men, and then he wasn't interested and another man said he'll marry her. People can't even comprehend how. How did this happen? How could this happen?
Speaker 1:Because we've got this idea that women were completely locked away and it's like if you read books like um and by I've got the egyptian scholar's name but there's volume book and he was a scholar that he wanted to. He was bringing up all of the hadiths, authentic hadiths, about that male-female relationship during the time of the Prophet, and he was shocked Like the flexibility of interaction was totally different from what he expected or thought from his society. And this is something that, again, for us as Muslims and practicing Muslims, this understanding of what the Islamic way you're supposed to interact with each other a lot of it. We've adopted a very puritanical and prudish approach towards male-female relations and we've used certain hadiths which are authentic, which are correct, which are sound and meaning, but again, how it's been interpreted, I'll argue that's a problem.
Speaker 3:Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have you on here. You'll find a safe space of listeners who can understand what you're going through. Just shoot us an email with a summary of your story at info at halalmatchca. You know, sheikh, this conversation as much as it's enlightening, it's very painful to hear. Some of the facts you mentioned are very painful to hear and I feel like some of our fukaha lack the fukh of reality. I remember when we were in sharia school we had a class called um qadaya fukhiya muasira um to non-arabic speakers, contemporary fukhi cases, and it looks like some scholars, like you said, unfortunately lived in a bubble that was created 1400 years ago and they don't want to leave it for their many reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Even to your point about the hyper-sexualized nature that was there in Andalusia. I don't even think you need to go that far back, because when the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and his companions first arrived to Medina, Medina was pretty screwed up, wasn't it? Like, as far as my understanding goes, like the culture and the way women were treated there was pretty bad.
Speaker 3:There were even like houses. As far as I know, there were houses for like prostitutes, right.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yes, exactly, and this is again. That's why when you're hearing the hadiths, like about day, day off, he's speaking about men who were um forgive me for language pimping their wives for prostitution, like letting their wives have it, because this was the culture, the hadith of um, when she spoke about the different types of marriages prior to islam and there was, like he mentioned, a type of prostitution where women will put a red flag out. This is the culture, environment that he grew up in. So again, you have to understand that when the Prophet, when subsequent scholars or the companions are speaking about issues, they are speaking within a framework. We have been so divorced from that culture we're thinking it was just idyllic and it was never the case. And even those who became Muslim you have to understand, some of them came with some of those habits. It wasn't, it didn't go straight away like the hadith of when. Even when you read the story of um, I can't remember the companion's name, but when one of the companions went to the prophet peace upon him and he complained that another man has slept with his slave girl and he was, basically they were contesting who was the child of the slave girl, and the prophet peace said the famous statement that the the child is for the bed. Now, everyone knows a hadith about the child is for the bed. But even everyone knows a hadith about the child is for the bed. But even just to think about that, there was illicit relations so much to the point where people didn't even like paternity thoughts. Like before Jeremy Kirwan, is it Maura Polovich? Whatever his name is there were these issues that some people were having relations with the same woman and they didn't know who to attribute the child with. In Islam, after the death of the Prophet, peace be upon him. And then you had the famous story of the prostitutes of Hadhramaut, which Abu Bakr and the companions fought against that a number of the female prostitutes were, you know, celebrating the death of the Prophet, peace be upon him. These were Muslims, but then they left Islam.
Speaker 1:But my point is that this was the culture. So you had debauchery, you had promiscuity. It wasn't an idyllic. Well, of course, we've got the best example in the message of allah. But I'm saying that for whatever reason, the same way, like if people are talking about the dangers of pornography, only fans porn addiction, because this is the climate. We can't pretend that this doesn't exist. Now I? I then again, I don't like to just kind of talk about as if we're living in in a majority country in the Middle East or Africa, because we're not. So let's talk about the issues that we're facing.
Speaker 1:And one of the things again, because I've studied with some people are now like sheikhs and imams and things like that. I feel sorry for them because you have to imagine, if you're studying classical texts, classical texts of Imam Ghazali, ibn Taymiyyah and the like in the 14th, 15th century, you're talking about these somewhat abstract and theoretical issues and now you're all thrust into the limelight and you're really supposed to deal with these complex issues that is affecting people's lives and that you're not equipped to. But you have a family to feed as well. And if you just say I'm just going to say what Imamam malik says, people's going to be like that's not what you're here for. You need to give an answer. Don't just tell me like that's not. Don't say, oh, I don't know, it's one third of knowledge. Don't give me that. Give me an answer. So you have to. Now you're learning on the spot and that's why I feel for them and that's why, even when I came back, I saw I gave a couple of talks and I saw how people, even in my own community I was brought up in the nigerian community they started to look at me differently. It's like now you can give all of the answers. It's like, whoa, I'm not my main, my mid-20s this is way above I had to intentionally detach myself from even giving any religious talks and things because I'm not even have nowhere near the life experience to talk about all of these issues.
Speaker 1:And this is something that, again, like I said, I feel for a number of like imams and sheikhs and what have you, because this is all they know and this is also how they have to make their money. So I have a level of empathy for them because I, I you know, I see what they're going through and 80 of the questions that imams get is in relation to like relationships and pastoral care. It's not athena issues, it's not how to pray, it's not what they've specialized and studied it, it's not about how you know. So this is something that how do you, you know, and that's why I can, like I said, I commend the work that you know, that you're doing other organizations and professionals, because you're helping alleviate that burden, and that was something that, even when we talk about the classical period of islam and I made of the muslim scholars of the past, of poly maths what people forget and neglect is that they were relying upon the expertise of many other people. So when people talk about imam shah, if I spoke about medicine is a wonderful science, or imam asyuti studied these, a lot of them were studying and reading other people's texts. It wasn't like trained to be a physician and trained to be an accountant and trained to be a lawyer, but they would maybe summarise what other people have said in their books. And again, like I said, we romanticised the past so much, like ridiculously.
Speaker 1:And this is something where, again, I try to be optimistic and, yes, whilst it is a challenge, I do feel that people are more opening up now and those who are very like, very like tunnel vision, they don't want to listen, then I don't, I don't waste my time with those because some people they'll, they'll learn. Yeah, they'll realize I'm some, but there are a lot of people who are thirsty for this. Is islam really this restrictive? And it's just a case of sometimes this what they need is like what is known as a third space. So people are very uncomfortable, maybe to go to the mosque to to have this kind of conversation or to listen to things like this. That's why it's good now we have alhamdulillah like a third space where it's like a podcast, uh venue outside of the masjid where people feel more comfortable. And that's what I think what we're trying to um, try to try to create and facilitate um for people to benefit from inshallah so you mentioned, uh, porn addiction a few times and obviously that is rampant throughout the Muslim community in various countries.
Speaker 2:So let's say I'm a Muslim brother that's single, I'm looking to get married and I've dealt with porn addiction for some time, but I feel like I'm over it and it's behind me. Now I'm talking to a sister sister and she asked me that question and I really feel like the sister is compatible. Is it necessary for me to even disclose that? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Or, if I may just add before you answer, brother Habib, also something as I don't know STDs, stis. If someone has such a thing and they're looking to get married, should they mention it? How should they go about it?
Speaker 1:So in terms of the second part of Hiba's question STDs, stis I definitely believe that one should disclose that. I think people, or your prospective spouse has a right to know whether you have an STI, std, because again, that's when I talk about sexual health, we talk about spiritual health, we talk about emotional health, but also sexual health, which is important. So I don't believe that, because I've had cases where one brother he contracted, um, it wasn't HIV, but he contracted, I think, gonorrhea or something or herpes. But he was like, oh, I made duas, he's gonna go. I said allah's forgiven me. I said so, I don't have to tell my spouse. I said that's between you and allah, maybe like the sin, but don't start playing with the religion. So you don't need to disclose that to your potential spouse, because now you're potentially putting her life in danger and she needs to know beforehand. And if she wants to continue with that, fine. If she doesn't, then again, but at least give her that opportunity and treat her with decency and respect. So I think when we talk about stis and stds and and I generally encourage women to ask their potential spouse to take an sti test regardless, um, because it is a reality that a number of people do have premarital relations and just to protect themselves. Um. So, in terms of like, when we're talking stis and stds, I don't think anything is wrong with requesting that or demanding that. Um, in terms of like, you just wanted to make sure and again, it also can be. Um, someone can inherit an sti and that's also, and it might also be via intimate relations that they could have got a sexually transmitted disease, which a lot of people are unaware of. And there's also. There are some people like, for example, in the black communities, um, if someone has a condition like um sickle cell. So if someone's got a sickle cell trait and another person's got a sickle cell trait, it's more than likely that their child is going to have sickle cell trait. So, because of that, if someone has a sickle cell trait, they would want to know, like, the blood type of the potential spouse just to avoid their, their child more than likely having a sickle cell. So things like that. I just think it's more. I think there's nothing wrong with disclosing that or being very clear in terms of I've got a sickle cell trait, I prefer with someone that hasn't got a sickle cell trait, and if they still want to get together despite knowing that and bear the risk again, that's fine, but at least give the person the option to make that decision.
Speaker 1:Now when we're talking about porn addiction. Now, porn addiction is what is quite a controversial topic, because even we use addiction, like in terms of porn, quite um loosely, but there's no actual real definition. According to a lot of um psychologists, like, it's not a mental illness, some say that is, some say it's not, it's quite disputed. Some say it's actual addiction, some say it's a problematic behavior where someone has excessively, you know, consumed the poor. Now, one thing that I think most people would agree, whether you call it an addiction or not, is that it definitely has some detrimental effects towards how one views sexuality, how one views opposite sex, even in terms of the brain patterns and things like that. So because of that and their detrimental effects can it can cause subsequent to marriage as well, I think it's important that one kind of discloses okay, if they've haven't have had an issue, or they do have an issue or what they are at least doing to try and resolve their porn habit or a sex with porn consumption, because it has affected a number of men, um, whether it's in a form of porn induced erectile dysfunction. Um, I get that quite a lot, where a number of people complain about, like my husband is not interested in intimacy with me, but he or he needs to watch porn before he can be intimate, or he can only get himself off via watching porn. You know this is real issues, that that happens, unfortunately. Or you have some women who complain that their husbands suffer from what is known as an ejaculation or an orgasmia. So an orgasmia is the inability to orgasm and an ejaculation is inability to expel fluid, inability to ejaculate, and some of that can be due to excessively watching, not only watching the porn, but it's the the masturbation habit. So, again, these are real life conversations and issues that many people face.
Speaker 1:So, again, I think if a brother is struggling with this and he hasn't maybe sought professional help or therapy or hasn't really resolved it, I think it's important that he at least is discloses. Okay, would this be an issue for you? If someone um had an issue with his past relationships or porn and they're seeking help, is that a deal breaker? Would you still be? And again it. Again, it's up to the woman to make her own decision, and likewise the other way around.
Speaker 1:But I just think that, because of the effects that it can have, especially after marriage and especially when someone has been caught blindsided, I do believe that one should kind of at least be a bit honest in terms of this is maybe what they were struggling with or are struggling with, but also, if they're talking about what they are doing or what they may intend to do to kind of overcome it, then that might resolve, like any potential issues. I'm not saying one necessarily needs to go into, to go into detail in terms of the types of adult content that they've watched. Of course that's unnecessary, but if they've the content that they've watched has had an effect on them, then naturally I think that other partners should because also some women are um more merciful be like okay, this is an issue. I'm trying to help, at least I know about it. I can try and work with you to try and overcome this rather than, like I said, leaving her in the dark.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, whether you want to call it porn addiction or excessive porn consumption, or have you I look at like I would not be surprised, I'll be um, how would I say I would to act as if people or men in particular I know women, but it's mainly when haven't or do not watch porn. It's just a lie, like generally speaking. So I would assume that at least 50% of men has watched it and maybe at least 20 to 30% have or do have a problem with porn watching, even in the Muslim community. It might even be hiding that right. It's even more than high. It's probably hiding that. And this is all people that haven't been married, that are married, divorced. So this is not. This is not. This is not for me to talk about it. It's just we have to be honest with ourselves.
Speaker 1:And it's also a problem that there are a number of men who have a problem with um soliciting escorts, are going to prostitutes, or they'll go abroad, or there'll be some women who will say I'm not going to have intimate relations in terms of from the front, I have intimate relations from the back, and they will say but I'm still a virgin because I've not had actual. Yeah, this is a real life issue, this happens, so so these are things where, again, how much one should disclose again if it has, if it's going to have an effect in their current situation, then the other party should know If it's something done in the past and it's not got any, then I don't think you need to kind of disclose in terms of your sins and what you've done in the past. But especially with porn addiction or excessive porn consumption, because, like I said, the rewiring it can do, it has on the brain and how it can affect the way one views intimacy, women, that's also very problematic. I think the same way, like a number of women, because of a lot of the romance novels and stuff that they've watched, they have a very unrealistic image of what marriage is, of what a man should be and that's and this is why having these honest conversations not to necessarily say how many novels have you watched in the last three years I'm not saying that but what are your expectations? What do you think marriage should be? If she says now I expect my husband to buy me flowers every two weeks, take me to dubai once a year, then take me to. If she has his romanticized because she's been watching a lot of dubai blink and that's what marriage is for her, then that's fine. But then he needs to realize whether I can, whether I can give her that or not. No, that it's just, it's reality. That's why, again, just having these honest conversations because we all have been educated or somewhat miseducated about relationships.
Speaker 1:Whether we like or not, whether someone has had relationships or not, people have an idea until what the expectations are. So if you've got these unrealistic expectations or these expectations that are quite lofty and your partner isn't able to meet them, then you're going to be dissatisfied and that's why, again, it's about having these honest conversations, especially again with men, a lot of it in relation to intimacy, because that's what motivates a lot of men. And then with the women it might be like the emotional side, because there are some women who and Esther Perel is a really brilliant psychologist she speaks about how nowadays a lot of women, the way before, marriage was done for pragmatic reasons or political reasons or family reasons. Now, because we're in the age of a lot of people, want to obviously be in love, like have a romantic relationship. Also what that comes with that, some of the expectations that women have nowadays is very different from before. So a number of women, they want their husband to be their best friend, their companion, their lover, their shopping buddy, their romantic um other half, their soulmate all of these expectations that historically women didn't have these expectations.
Speaker 1:But if a woman has expectations, then the man might need to realize okay, this is what she wants. She wants you to be emotionally available. She wants you to be vulnerable, because vulnerable is a sign of strength. She wants you to know about the different love languages and the different attachments and she also wants you to memorize inside and out and it's like, okay, great mashallah, but I might not be able to do all of that again, just having these honest and really explicit conversations.
Speaker 1:I just think that I think it's important to be again like transparent with ones um and partner and again, I think as adults, one can have this comment if some of the difficult conversations, like around porn addiction or stis, if one does obviously feel comfortable to say it face to face, you can say indirectly or say would these be like a deal breaker?
Speaker 1:Or have this in the form of like you have a list of deal breakers or red flags and say, if, if, if, if, um, if some, if your spouse has any of these, would this be complete deal breaking? If they say yes, or they might cross some off. That's the way of like getting that message across. But ultimately, what my point is that I think transparency is is quite important because, like I said, I think people of the past were more in tune with having these honest conversations about intimacy, which for many Muslims nowadays is a very uncomfortable topic, and I would argue that our tradition doesn't have this puritanical, prudish understanding about intimacy that many of us have adopted, I would argue, from other traditions, other cultures or from like Christianity or from, like Christianity.
Speaker 2:If you could give one piece of advice to single Muslims preparing for marriage, more specifically, to prepare for intimacy, what would it be?
Speaker 1:So I would say to follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. And the reason why I just say that is because the sunnah of the Prophet is way more broader than many people realize, especially in relation to intimacy. Because as far as I'm concerned and I mentioned it earlier the prophet muhammad, peace be upon him, is the most romantic person you ever meet or you ever read about in your life. The way he prioritized women's pleasure, not only their emotional pleasure but also their physical pleasure, and also was attentive to their needs and also allowed women their own voice and marrying different women as well. You see that he allowed different personality types and this is something that I think, as men, we should look more at the prophet peace as a husband, as he was in terms of, and also there are women that, for example, we know that, the women of the unsar. He didn't marry them because the jealousy was too extreme, they couldn't being in a polygamous relationship. So he was totally fine with that. So I'm saying the way the Prophet, peace be upon him, was as the sunnah of female sexual satisfaction, the sunnah of intimacy is something that unfortunately, many people are not aware of, and I think if one reads and learns about it, it will inspire one to be a better person, a better Muslim and also, inshallah, a better spouse. And it works both ways, not only for men but also for women. I think women, when they read about the Prophet peace be upon him and the way he was with his wives, I think they can naturally embrace that more, whereas I think a lot of men, because we haven't really seen or heard of those examples or those stories. That's why, unfortunately, when you hear about it, if it was someone other than the Proverbs, peace be upon him, some Muslims might have said some disparaging things about oh, that's like a simp, that's like this, that's like that, that's not realizing that the Proverbs, peace be upon him, he embodied true manhood, perfection, mercy towards women and again. So that's why, again, he's, he's. He's the example because, like I said, many of our understandings about intimacy a lot of it you alluded to earlier, um is based on our culture and um a quick story of like when, during the time of the prophet, peace upon him, when the men of mecca married the women of medina and the men of mecca, one of the men of mecca, he wanted to have intimate relations with his wife from the right end position and she was like no, we don't do that here, because in their understanding in Medina that if a woman has relations from behind, that the child will be deformed or cross-eyed. So they went to the Prophet, peace be upon him, to clarify is this acceptable in Islam? And the Prophet clarified that as long as in the correct orifice, ie from the front, it's perfectly permissible, whichever position that you want to enter upon your wife. So this is an example that they were the people of medina, because they had a more culturally conservative or restrictive understanding of intimacy and modesty. And the prophet, peace, even clarified, and it was more expansive than they understood.
Speaker 1:And, as I'll argue, the way a lot of us have understood islam or intimacy in islam, a lot of it's based on our culture, not based on the religion. Because when you actually read and study the life of the prophet and how early the scholars because, again, a lot of early scholars, the erotologists that were speaking about intimacy, they were inspired by the Quran and the hadith. It's not that they're just inspired purely by their own cultures. Their main inspiration was the Quran and the Sunnah. But unfortunately, like I said, a lot of Muslims have become so detached from intimacy, from Islam and with sexuality, we see it as extremely taboo.
Speaker 1:I need to go to other sources. So a lot of Muslims will say the five love languages from Gary Chapman, which is a Christian book. So you don't have no issues reading from a Christian perspective, but as soon as someone says something from an islamic perspective, you feel uncomfortable. Now my, my I would say to that is it's not the religion that has the issue, it's you have the issue that you understand of the religion. Why is it you feel comfortable to go to a christian to learn about intimacy? Why is it you feel comfortable to read about the attachment styles which, again, they're great, but why is it that anytime someone's coming from an islamic framework or religious framework, you have this trepidation in your heart? And that's because the way you look at islam, or how you've been taught about islam and is, is a religion that doesn't teach intimacy, romance, and it's one which is just about rights, when I'd argue that's more of a cultural interpretation, that's more about legalism as opposed to being about treating people, treating your spouse, with love and affection.
Speaker 1:And again, like I said, the Sunnah of the Prophet. Peace be upon him. Read the Sunnah from the lens of how he was as a husband, how he was in his marital relationship, especially his relationship with Khadijah. That alone that, when you read about that and that story and their interaction, it will blow your mind seriously. That's what I would leave. And to not give up on love as well, because I think in this day and age, with gender wars and red pill of feminism, you will hear horror stories. Don't get me wrong. But there are men that are yearning for their soulmate, there are men that are yearning for a loving spouse and there's also women who are yearning for that. So, just when you hear some of the noise, just realize that a number of people are speaking from a broken or hurt place and maybe that's their form of um healing, which is again, that's. That's fine, but if you're someone who's looking to get married you haven't been married, inshallah, you will find. You'll find your soulmate that will treat you and give you the love and that you deserve.
Speaker 2:Inshallah inshallah, follow the sunnah, the best advice ever lastly, could you recommend books resources, maybe scholars that you recommend, uh, for those that are wanting to learn more about intimacy and relationships?
Speaker 1:now I'll list. I actually did a video on like 10 books on intimacy for Muslims to learn, so I'll list them off. Obviously I'll mention my book, a Taste of Honey, and Women of Design Kunyaza, but there are also many other great books I recommend. I think we referred to earlier. By Abdul-Haneem Abushakar. There's a book called Sex Education for Husband and Wife and that's available in English. There's another book called Sex Education for Husband and Wife and that's available in English.
Speaker 1:There's another book called Islamic Guides to Sexual Relations by Mohammed ibn Adam al-Kawthari. He's a British scholar, traditionally trained. He talks about the hadiths about intimacy. There's a really good book that was recently published by a marriage counsellor from Malaysia, a husband and wife couple called um osman siddiq and enon mansour. Their book is called sex, soul and islam a brilliant book and it talks about the hadith about intimacy for women, and hadith um about intimacy relating to to men, and again, it's a very contemporary book. Um another book if you want to know about the history of like erotology and how scholars didn't have this prudish approach towards intimacy. There's a really nice small book called lust and grace by ali um kadur. He's um moroccan but from origin from morocco, but he's um lives in germany, uh, germany. Another good book was quite academic Sexuality in Islam by Abdur Wahab, and another book called Female Sexuality in the Early Medieval Islamic World.
Speaker 1:So there are many books. I'm saying, and I'm intentionally giving different books, because there are some books that are fairly easy to read. There are some books that are a bit more academic, so it depends what someone is looking for, um, but and they'll also there's some really good courses. So there's um, um sheikh suhaib webb um, who is obviously an american scholar, as how do you trained. He recently released a number of series called um the fit of nikah. So that's really good. I think he started that a couple of weeks ago. So it's like a four or five part series talks about the understanding of marriage and nikah, like even because a lot of the understandings of the pre-modern muslims wasn't like, they didn't have these reservations like how intimacy and marriage is intertwined. The word marriage I mean the word nikah in in arabic nikah means intimacy, you know. So they didn't have these a of the reservation that we have. So it's important to debunk that. But then also to contextualize, and he talks about how a lot of the pre-modern or the fukhahdeh definitions of marriage is probably not as applicable for modern day age in terms of how we view marriage in terms of it being about partnership. We want love and intimacy and someone to be emotionally available. So he does a really brilliant job, um.
Speaker 1:I've released a number of um videos on my institute erotology institute. You can check that out. Obviously, your podcast and the work that you're doing. Bless you and continue to help you speak about important and courageous topics, because definitely there's people that are looking for this information. So we have.
Speaker 1:And the reason why it's important and I'm not afraid to kind of amplify or talk about different people is that there are many different people are trying their best to help fill this void and there are different styles and different approaches in there, and I think it's important that people know that they're also women educators, experts like hibou.
Speaker 1:You've studied the sharia as well, so it's not like you haven't got islamic knowledge. You're islamically trained. You're just as trained as, I'm sure, most of the khatibs and imams that are speaking even more trained, so you can speak from an islamic land and you also can speak from practical experience of what you're seeing on the ground. And it's important that muslims women know that, because one of the things that I'm quite disheartened by is that sometimes I will hear um women will say, or women who are like educators, or they will say that a lot of women will go up to them and say they're waiting for a man like an imam to validate what they've said, and that's problematic. There are a number of muslims in particular that feel uncomfortable even to hear a sheikh or ustada speaking even about these topics. They need a man to validate them. And I'm saying again, that's not from our religion, Because a Prophet, peace be upon him.
Speaker 1:He taught his wives and his wives, whether it was Umm Salama, whether it was A'la al-Shaym, may Allah be pleased with them both. They were teaching, both men and women, even about intimate issues, both men and women, even about intimate issues. And a lot of the scholars of the later generations, a lot of their fatale understanding, were based on the rulings of our mothers, our, the mothers of the believers, who were scholars in their own right. So this understanding that women cannot teach, even about these issues, a number of women have brought into this, unfortunately as well. Where they can, they only want to hear something from a man, and this is also quite problematic because a lot of our understandings about male-female relations, I would argue, even as a man, it's because I'm seeing things from a male perspective and that's something that you do see that clearly that I can say a story and I'm looking at it purely from a male perspective and not thinking about implications or men to listen to. So that's why, again, I think it's important that we try and create that medina society where, if we look at umar bin khattab, who is known to be, you know, very strong and stern with women, but people forget he was a man of justice and he was a man that also empowered women.
Speaker 1:There are several stories where I do relay some of them in my book, but one of two of the stories that I really love is um, when there was a woman who went to one of the companions when Umar was still. He was in need of the Muslims at that time and she was saying her husband, you know such a brilliant man, he prays all of the time during the night, he's always fasting. And Umar said, mashallah, you know, you've got a brilliant man, a great husband. And he didn't realize what the woman was saying indirectly, that she was saying that he isn't fulfilling her needs, he's not being attentive towards her. And then one of the companions who was with Umar at the time, he actually told Umar what she's actually saying, because she didn't want to say directly what the issue was. And Umar then said okay, can you, can you rule in this, in this situation? So that's the example of Umar who delegated to someone who's more experienced or has a better knowledge about a particular matter.
Speaker 1:Another example of Umar again the brilliant leader, may Allah be pleased with him that he was when he was patrolling the streets of Medina and he heard a woman who was singing poetry about how, if it wasn't for the fear of Allah, she would have brought another man into her bedroom to make love with her because her husband was away. And then she was, you know, she was in need of intimacy. And then, when Omar found out about this, he then went to his daughter, hafsa, who was also the wife of the Prophet peace be upon him. This was when Omar was the leader, so the Prophet, peace be upon him, had passed away, and then he asked Hafsa. He said I've got an important question to ask you, and again, there's no shyness when it comes to religion how long can a woman be away from her husband? Then hafsa outshined, as she indicated with her hands either four or five months. And then one narration said five or six months. And then, because of that recommendation from his daughter, he then told because he found out that the woman's husband was away on jihad, on a military expedition. He then told the husband to come back to ensure that he's to fulfill his wife's desires, and then he said that no man should spend more than four months away from his wife. Why? Because he's thinking about the needs of women. And this is something that when you read later scholars. When they say things like a man should be with his wife at least once every four months, you have to understand the context in which it was said. So this is from the advice of a woman from Hafsa. So this is an example where he had men who was in positions of power, umar, who was consulting women about intimate matters. So this is something that, again, I think we as Muslims, we lose sight of. So when you hear Imam Malik said this, or the Maliki said it's not realizing that they are taking the opinion of Umar, who took this opinion from a woman who was his daughter, hafsa.
Speaker 1:So many of these stories, like I said, in the first three communities where you had women who were elevated and respected and their voices were heard, unfortunately from like you could say, the third century, fourth century of the Islamic era, and then the legal schools were codified, you didn't have as many women like scholars, in terms of like jurors. You had women in terms of narrating hadiths, but in terms of their legal opinions it wasn't as unfortunate. So that's why you don't really hear their voices and that's why some of these issues that you find, especially like these common day issues, like in the sense of like um secret second wives and things like that. It's a really like polarizing topic, because when you listen to women it's very clear this is clearly un-Islamic, it's clearly unethical. How can you have a secret second wife?
Speaker 1:Or when you speak to a number of brothers who are knowledgeable, or technically it's halal, technically I don't need permission, so it's not wrong and it's just that you're clearly going against the spirit of the law. Do you think the Prophet peace be upon him would have done this? Do you think any companion would have done this and the Prophet would have said this is completely fine. But because you are stuck in this echo chamber of other brothers who are saying or this scholar said you can do it, and then there's this story by this scholar who may have done this and it's like but you know from the principle of Islam, again, as a lay person, it is a religion that you have to be honest, you have to be upright, you can't be deceitful. How can you? If you understand that, how can you then think that you can even deceive your wife? If you ask 99 of women, the answer is very clear.
Speaker 1:If you ask a lot of men, I'll be honest, people are, but technically, because we can justify and rationalize that. You know, if I tell her she'll, you know, kick off and I might lose my kids, I might lose my house. So you rationalize something that from the spirit of the of Islam, if you understand the sunnah, you know that he will not allow that. You know that he will never do that. But if you are just thinking about theoretical Islam or Islam by technicality or legality, you can.
Speaker 1:This is something, like I said, we lose sight of when we forget about the sunnah. I'm not talking about when he's like the sunnah, the spirit, and when I'm talking about the sunnah, it's only the sunnah of the prophet, peace be upon him, because he said follow his sunnah and the sunnah of the khulafah of Rashidun, which are the four rightly guided chanels, and Umar is one of them. So this is why, like, again, a lot of brothers, we know about Umar being very stern and harsh, but we forget that there were several instances where he listened to women, he was corrected by a woman and he wasn't fine with that because he was a man of justice, and I just think that that's something that we need to embody, not just to live in the past and think. Unless I can get this clear statement from a classical scholar that said this islam does allow you know such and such. This is perfectly permissible. So I just embody the spirit and this is something that, if we do that, because when you look at a lot of our luminary scholars, whether they're al-ghazazali or Ibn Khaymar, jauziyah or Ibn Arabin, and what have you Non-Muslims Respect to them.
Speaker 1:Ibn Sina, how many Non-Muslims Are respecting Our scholars For their brilliance? Because we're living In the past? They're not really. They don't think Islam Is like being practical Because we're living In the past. They wasn't living in the past and that's why, again, it's about trying to again embody the spirit of Islam and then deal with hard-hitting but real issues that Muslims are dealing with and not just trying to live in the past. You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, brother, have you ever been accused of being a feminist? It just occurred to me to ask you.
Speaker 1:I've been accused. I've been accused of being a feminist. I've been accused of being a black nationalist. I've been accused of being a simp. I've been accused of loving women too much. I've been accused of so many things, so like, even with the feminist. I'm not. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a feminist.
Speaker 1:I don't like the term feminism but I do understand where it came from and I don't have this hatred towards feminism. I have issues with it because of how it um came about, but in it. But I do have a lot of empathy for um feminist writers and I do read some books by um feminists, both Muslim and non-Muslim feminists. I don't have this because someone I don't agree with some parts of feminism or I don't agree with the label. Therefore, you know I ridicule um feminism and, again, I just think it's um someone who's immature, intellectually immature, can't listen to someone that you might disagree with some of their opinions, you know. So this whole idea that brothers unfortunately nowadays like to throw around that if someone's speaking about women's rights in islam, from the quran, from the sunnah, they label the feminist, which is crazy, and that is just. That's just. That is just where we've come to, that where if someone is speaking about, like someone said to me recently, you black feminists.
Speaker 1:I said I know I'm black, but the feminist part, where did you get that from? You said, oh, because you're speaking about women's rights too much. And I said I was like, okay, I'm speaking about women's rights in where. He said in Islam. I said, and you're quoting scholars and stuff speaking about women's rights, what about brothers rights? I'm like, so you have a problem with me just talking about what scholars or what the prophet peace be upon him said about being right by women. You have problems with me emphasizing or speaking about how the prophet, even before he passed away on his deathbed, will say and this certainly, certainly, sir in telling men, warning men. So, whilst we know about the hadiths of women are fitna, yes, we know about those hadiths and we talk at length about feminism and women are fitna, but you don't think about the hadiths where the Prophet is talking about how you should be responsible for women. You don't talk about the verse in the. This is from Allah, this is not from those scholars. So Allah is telling you that, but you want to ignore that. You're just thinking of financial providing. You're not thinking about looking after their emotional and spiritual welfare. You're not thinking about making sure they feel safe in their bedroom, you're not making sure that they're living in an environment where they feel safe and protected. You don't even feel embarrassed.
Speaker 1:As a Muslim and I'm speaking personally I feel more comfortable to go into non-muslim circles my wife down in many muslim majority countries and environments, because when you're in a lot of muslim not all, but a lot of muslim majority communities, they're layering, they're looking sometimes and it's like I don't have that in many non-muslim majority communities and I'm saying that is a shame on us as muslims. That is a shame on us as muslims. So this idea that so we can talk about islam, which is gives women's rights and this and the other, but we embody now which are we trying to make that a lit reality? And that's the problem. And I think the fact that any pushback that someone's actually saying that we should treat women as human beings and they should feel respected, it's like no, you're going too far. This is feminism, this is western. And then those same brothers they can. They wouldn't want to live in a muslim world or they would only want to live in a muslim world. They've got all of the rights and they're treated like kings and this and the other, and they're using their american dollar or the canadian dollar or the british pounds to live like a wealthy person. Because they see the injustice. And I'll argue, because a lot of those countries are not embodying what islam came to bring.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the whole feminism stuff and again it's easy for me to say because even if I'm being accused of being a feminist, it doesn't hit and it just, unfortunately it's used against women a lot and this is what I think as brothers we should be more man enough to kind of talk about these issues that we have a problem. Let's not make out like because we can talk about red pill and divorce and you know we talk and there are issues, but they're also, if you read our literature, it's not from our religion. But if you read our tradition, there is a lot of misogyny. There are opinions that you think what is this that has still been enforced in the name of islam? So we have. So we can't pretend that this doesn't exist. And anyone who's studied will know this, and there are people that have studied these texts and that's why they have these ideas. And again, you can still respect our scholars. You can still respect you know, appreciate and benefit their works, but there are a number of things that some of our scholars have said that maybe it's not compatible with this day and age.
Speaker 1:We have to be realistic and honest with ourselves but unfortunately, because I think people don't want to be seen to question or challenge what a previous scholar has said, even if it clearly goes against the Quran I'm not talking about hadith, where a scholar has clearly like there's a scholar, I'm not going to say his name, name we spoke about um women I. He said that women are inferior to men and he gave 18 reasons why women are. And this is a classical respecter scholar and this book is even translated into english. So people will probably, if they read the book, they know what I'm talking about. But this is my point, that they will say, like he said that women are inferior to men and he gave 18 reasons why women are inferior. He mentioned, like menstruation. He said childbirth, because they can't divorce. So he's given all of these rationale. That's clearly from a judo, christian perspective, or a persian, because he was influenced. He made the evil great scholar.
Speaker 1:Now my issue is that, because a lot of muslims have studied with some people, because they revere this color so much they don't want to call it out and say that's not islamic. They will say oh well, you know technically what he means is this, and they're trying to make, rather than just saying, okay, that was his opinion. That clearly contradicts the quran and so now we don't accept that. We don't need to accept that. But because they revere the scholars so much, it's like they're just trying to make excuses and, to be honest, the people that are really calling out for the most part, it's normally feminists, whether they're muslim or muslim. That's the reality.
Speaker 1:That's why, because they're calling this out and because a lot of the muslims were traditionally trained and men, they revere some of these scholars, even though they might know what they're saying is true, they don't want to admit it and this is also a problem, and I'm seeing this not only with, like the, some of the rampant misogyny finding our tradition, issues like female genital cutting as well, which is unfortunately an issue and is prevalent in some parts of the muslim world and when.
Speaker 1:I'll be speaking about this a lot of times the people that are calling this out are feminists or non-muslims and a lot of the people are traditionally trained, because a scholar has said this, and even when they will read some great scholars who've said things like female genital cutting or khitan is important or it's good for women because it perfects them and the reason why khitan is good.
Speaker 1:Or it's important because if a woman was not circumcised, she would have excessive lust and she'll start to be promiscuous like non-muslims and there are a number of this is well known in especially a number of um muslim countries in africa, as well as in arabia, as well as in parts of Southeast Asia. But because a lot of people are traditionally trained, don't feel like I don't want to go against what the scholar or previous scholars have said, even though I know medically and all the rest of it is wrong and it clearly contradicts the Quran and Sunnah. I'm just going to keep quiet, and the people that are speaking out against it are oftentimes people that are not from our tradition, or people that might be you can consider to be radical feminists. So this is why it's a problem that. But then I'm asking okay, those imams, scholars or what have you? Do you have more allegiance to your scholars or the quran and sunnah?
Speaker 1:exactly and if you have the quran and sunnah, you can be like. No, I still respect those scholars, but I don't agree with that.
Speaker 1:That's incorrect yeah just having that spirit of trying to. We're all trying to serve people, obviously, and worship Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, but embodying the spirit that Quran and Sunnah encourage us to speak the heart and speak out for truth. And you find a lot of injustice in our Muslim communities that has been done in the name of Islam, unfortunately so. But in answer to your question, yes, I've been accused of being a feminist. I'm not a feminist, but people come wherever they like and sometimes, when they dm me, I clap back and give them. I should be better, not my dude response okay, your books um brother habib.
Speaker 3:Where can um anyone find them? And if someone's seeking any counseling or seeking your services, how can they reach you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my books are available on Amazon or you can check out Mecca Books. So meccabookscom they're the main distributor in North America, so you can check them out. I don't have basically counselling services anymore. I've got a lot on Even like the work that I'm doing. I'm, like Robert said, I counselling services anymore. Um, I've got a lot on even like the work that I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I'm a, like brother says I'm a, I've got a nine to five, I've got a family. I'm a chartered accountant by profession, so this is like I do on the side. It's not so, and so that's why I would. I would try and signpost people to, um, you know, muslim counsellors if they need any, but I do try and post some on my instagram page and things like that a lot of recommended counsellors or sex therapists or like if they need matchmaking services, like the great work that you're doing. So our people's. Again, it's not about yeah, I'm not telling people to come to me for counselling services and I'm not a matchmaker as well. Let me just please say that I'm not a matchmaker, so please do not contact me asking you can go to Hibben's aid. You don't. Don't ask me because I'm not a matchmaker. So just wanted to make that quite clear.
Speaker 3:Wonderful, wonderful, and your services, the online course you have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my website are erotologyinstitutecom, so I've got a number of online courses on African intimacy and Islamic sexology, so a number of like what we've been speaking about. I've got a number of courses on that website so you can check them out. There's some courses that are free and there's also some that you have to subscribe to, but you can check that out.
Speaker 3:Wonderful. We will link inshallah, your website and your Instagram handle. And Zaid, do you have any more questions? No more questions. Actually, Zaid, do you have any more questions?
Speaker 2:No more questions. Actually, just one thing I wanted to plug in when Brother Habib was recommending resources and other professionals Of course, sister Amira Zaki. She does courses for both men and women, so if anybody is interested in premarital coaching or preparing for intimacy, so she is another wonderful option and you guys can check her out on Instagram. Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry, I forgot to mention, forgive me. Yes, sorry, there are other resources. Emre Rezaki, like you mentioned, the vaginismus coach, there is Angelica Lindsay Ali, who's a sexual health educator, and she's got an institute called the village answer institute and got courses, so you can again, especially for women. It's important that women know they have resources available, um, there is um dr sadaf lodi, who's an intimacy coach as well as being a gynecologist, um based in new york. She's um, so you can check her out. There's a muslim um sex therapist. She's a nationally recognized sex therapist, dr shannon Shannon Chavez. She's got a website as well, the same name, and you can check her out. So, again, there are professionals, especially, you know, for women in particular, because I think men are more aware of some of these services, but maybe women not so much. So you do have people who are culturally informed, experts, have experience in different, whether it's counseling, whether it's sex therapy, um, and if people want to be educated as well. So, yeah, thank you, amzay for for bringing that to my attention.
Speaker 3:I forgot about that no problem, brother habib, we are very grateful and honored to have you and, uh, I think we ourselves learned a lot, and I'm sure our listeners have as well. And, yeah, maybe we can have you again in the future. We already have a topic in mind.
Speaker 2:And inshallah.
Speaker 3:Inshallah, jazakum Allah, khair, and yeah, assalamualaikum, waalaikumsalam.