Diary of a Matchmaker

Marriage After Divorce: How To Avoid Past Mistakes w/ Sarah Sultan

• Halal Match • Episode 50

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Starting over after a breakup or divorce? We know it’s not easy, but you’re not alone. In this episode, we sit down with therapist Sarah Sultan to talk about what it really takes to heal, grow, and move forward with confidence.

We discuss how to recognize red flags you might have missed the first time around and how to rebuild your self-worth so you’re not carrying past baggage into something new. We also cover the importance of finding clarity on what you need in a spouse, and why you should focus on becoming whole before looking for someone to complete you. If you’re ready to stop feeling stuck and start seeing this as a fresh beginning, this episode is for you.

Follow Sarah on Instagram, or email her directly at: therapy@sarahsultan.com 

Speaker 1:

Everybody has their own version of reality. That is their truth, that's what they believe to be true. But unless you can really start to think about what role did I play, unless there's that sense of muhasabah right, that self-accountability that we are encouraged to engage in Islamically, then how are you going to learn and grow and how are those patterns not gonna repeat? You're gonna fall right into the same steps of that dance but just with a different person.

Speaker 3:

Assalamu alaikum, I'm hiba and I'm zaid. You're listening to diary of a matchmaker, a podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers we'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single muslim so let's dive in, all right.

Speaker 3:

All right, so welcome to another episode. Everyone, my name is Zaid and this is my wife, Hiba, and we are honored today to have a special guest, Sister Sara Sultan. She is a licensed professional counselor who works to help her clients live more fulfilling lives by reconnecting with Allah. Sara has a master's degree in mental health counseling and has practiced therapy for over 10 years. She is an instructor with Mishka University and Al-Maghrib Institute, where she teaches courses about the intersection between Islam, psychology and counseling, and is also a research fellow at Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research. So thank you for coming on board.

Speaker 2:

We're excited to have you. Thank you so much. We have a lot in store for you.

Speaker 1:

I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 3:

So, as you already know, getting married is not easy, whether you're divorced, whether you're widowed. Your engagement just broke off. You could have been in the courting phase for maybe six months and then, for some reason, it broke off.

Speaker 1:

So, in your opinion, what is harder starting or starting over? I think that's a great question. I think that both take a certain amount of courage. But I think when you're first starting the marriage process there's naturally a little bit of trepidation that comes with it, but there's also a lot of excitement in the hopes of meeting someone that you're going to spend your life with.

Speaker 1:

But I think, starting over, a lot of times the fear outweighs the excitement, because you know how much is at stake, you know how much can go wrong, you know how heartbroken you can become, you know how much pain you can endure in that process. And so the amount of bravery or courage that it takes to jump back in after a difficult relationship, I think is a lot more than when you're just first starting out. It's just like you know. It's just like any. You know any situation. When you're first going to get your license to drive a car, you're excited, you're looking forward to it and everything. But after that first accident, right after that first fender bender or whatever it is, then the fear of getting behind the wheel. It takes a lot of extra courage and bravery to be able to do that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and that fear often becomes a hindrance right In starting over.

Speaker 1:

It can.

Speaker 2:

It can, yeah. So what are some of the struggles you're seeing in your line of work with people starting over, especially maybe after divorce?

Speaker 1:

You know, I think that naturally, that fear that fear is can be both a pro and a con right. The fear can propel like, can actually propel you to learn more about yourself, towards self-discovery, toward growth and toward thriving. I actually find that a lot of people who have been through difficulties in past relationships, a divorce situation they tend to be more self-aware about what they're bringing to the table in a marriage than a lot of first timers tend to have. And there's also this need and this want to be able to grow and to understand what happened. What can I learn from that situation so that I don't repeat the same mistakes going into this relationship, so that also, maybe the person I choose has different qualities than the person I didn't get along with in my past relationship. So that fear can actually propel a person toward growth, which is beautiful.

Speaker 1:

But then, on the opposite side of things, that fear can also hold a person back, because now it's this fear of okay, how am I going to trust somebody again? How am I going to be able to put myself out there again and risk my heart again, put in and invest so much effort into a relationship and into a person after I've been burned so badly in the past. And so there it's. A it's a. It's a double-edged sword. It can, there's a pro to it, but then there can also be cons. A it's a double-edged sword it can.

Speaker 2:

There's a pro to it, but then there can also be cons. Okay, so, as matchmakers, a lot of times we get uh calls and um like interest from people who are divorced but they want to start over, and we always ask uh, what lessons do you take from your previous relationship? What were the circumstances behind the divorce? And a lot of times not all the times, but a lot of times what we hear is it was the other person's problem, they were this, they were that. Now, of course, we all think we are right. Right, and that's why we do the things we do, because we think we're right. But when starting over, how can somebody decide if it was their fault and things they need to work on, or if it was the other person's fault and they shouldn't like blame themselves?

Speaker 1:

You know, one of the things that I often advise my clients who are getting to know somebody for the purposes of marriage, and if they're getting to know somebody if they themselves have been through a divorce, obviously that's something that we are working through and talking through. But if they're getting to know somebody if they themselves have been through a divorce, obviously that's something that we are working through and talking through. But if they're also getting to know somebody for marriage who has been through a divorce, one of the questions I always ask them is, when you ask them about the divorce, when you ask them about the marriage, what's their response? And if their response is he, he, he or she, she, she and it was all that, it was all about what the other person did, I'm sorry, they're not ready, like that's always my impression. They're not ready Because, unless you're going to be self-reflective, the pattern is just going to repeat itself.

Speaker 1:

It takes two people to tango. There's actually a metaphor in marriage counseling that marriage is like a dance, and as long as both spouses do the same steps for this dance, the dance always stays the same until someone is self-aware enough to break away and change the steps of the dance. Then the dance changes and so, after a marriage ends, you have to reflect on what steps was I taking to contribute to this dance? It's a two-way street, it's not. Yes, sometimes there's somebody who is more accountable, sure, you know, especially obviously in cases of abuse and things like that, it's a different situation.

Speaker 1:

I'm not talking about cases of abuse, I'm talking about typical falling out that happens in marriages. But unless you're willing to acknowledge the role that you play everybody has their own version of reality, and everybody's. That is their truth, that's what they believe to be true. But unless you can really start to think about okay, what role did I play? Unless there's that sense of muhasabah right, that self-accountability that we are encouraged to engage in Islamically, then how are you going to learn and grow and how are those patterns not going to repeat? You're going to fall right into the same steps of that dance, but just with a different person.

Speaker 3:

As a brother. If I'm speaking to somebody for the purpose of marriage and I discover that this sister had been through a divorce, what signs would indicate to me that she's truly ready to move on emotionally? What practical steps can I take to assess that and just make a decision for myself?

Speaker 2:

And same thing if it was the other way around.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah for both, because the signs are the same for for both men and women, and so the biggest thing that I would look for is, um, self-awareness. I would also look for um, emotional healing, right. So for self-awareness that would look like, okay, uh, you talk about the divorce and they're able to acknowledge, like, here are some of the things that happened, here are the ways that I've grown through it, here are the ways that I've worked on myself so that I am ready to go into another relationship, and here are the worries I have about what I might be bringing into this marriage because of my past experiences. That I'm working one of the main things in. I think in anything, whether it's divorce, whether it's any type of difficult experience, any type of traumatic experience that a person has gone through it's awareness of I am working on differentiating whether my reaction right now is because of the issue I'm facing right now or if it's a reaction to something I faced in the past. Right. So, understanding what are my triggers, what are the things that are hard for me to deal with Because they trigger a past experience, and I am working on being aware of that so that I don't necessarily overreact in something that might be a small situation, but it feels bigger because of my past experiences. So that's part of self awareness, right?

Speaker 1:

Emotional healing is also a part of that right when it's okay, I can identify that. These are the experiences I went through and here's how they made me feel and here's how I'm working through that, so understanding that this was the plan of Allah, and I'm really working on trusting Allah has a better plan for me, that he's the best of planners. So emotional and spiritual healing because a lot of times, going through a difficult experience also requires spiritual healing how am I using this to view this as a test from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, as that this was not a failure, but this was a stepping stone toward my future? And how am I using this to get closer to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala? Because that's the goal of any test, right? Some of those are just a couple of the things that that I would uh, I would look for.

Speaker 1:

Also. Some of the more clear-cut things is is there anything that's off the table of things that they want to discuss? Are they being very secretive? Are they being? Are they being avoidant of certain questions? That to me, would indicate that they're not ready, like there's still a lot that's happening internally that they're not willing to touch, but it's going to show up later.

Speaker 2:

Do you think that a lot of people do all these steps and reflect and do self accountability or cause? It sounds so beautiful and so ideal, but in our culture do we really do that?

Speaker 1:

I think, generationally. Now there is a lot more of that. I will say I think it's amongst Muslim women more than amongst Muslim men, but there are a lot of Muslim men who are, you know, really like there are more Muslim male counselors now, mashallah. So there's especially with the intertwining of faith with mental health. I think that has allowed the community to feel a little bit more comfortable with some of these efforts, because there's more of an awareness. Before, the idea of self-reflection, of going into therapy, was really scary because it's like what are they going to do, to my mind, how are they going to mess me up, right? Really scary because it's like what are they going to do, to my mind, how are they going to mess me up, right? But now that people are educating themselves a little bit more about how Islam and mental health are intertwined, I think it gives people a little bit more of an avenue to be able to do that.

Speaker 1:

Regardless of that, though, I think that this is hard work. This is very hard to do. It is a lot easier to just get married again right Than to do the work of actually healing before getting married again. It is very hard work and a lot of times, immediately after a divorce, what feels better is okay, I'm just going to find another partner. I'm going to find somebody else who's going to see the good in me and I'm going to prove that that person. The problem was my ex-spouse, right, and that's what feels good in the moment. Unless they give themselves a little bit of time to realize that's not what I need right now. But it is hard work, so a lot of people are not really willing to do it.

Speaker 2:

I thought so.

Speaker 3:

There's also that struggle of finding that balance between faith and action, where you understand that so much of what has happened in your negative experience was part of a lost plan and it was a test. But also there was some wrongdoing on your part, or the spouse's part in the case of trauma, or abuse, your part or the spouse's part in the case of trauma or abuse. So there's always that struggle between finding the balance and understanding. Okay, was this a test? Did I do something wrong? How do I wrap my head around this right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think that it's always good to start from a place of acknowledging that yes, I did do something wrong, unless, as we said, abuse let's take that off the table, right. But yes, I did do something wrong and the other person did something wrong too, that it's going to be both. But I can't change the other person, even if I'm still married to that person. I can't change them. I can only change myself. I can only put the effort into transforming the way I show up in relationships, and one of the ways action-wise I think that's a really good point, action-wise to consider.

Speaker 1:

That is what about in other relationships. Marriage is a very unique relationship. But what about in other relationships in your life? How are you showing up with friends? How are you showing up with your parents? How are you showing up with your siblings, with other family members, right? How are you showing up with your coworkers at work? Are there personality traits?

Speaker 1:

Are there things that you tend to do that make it difficult to be in any relationship with you? Right, and we all have our quirks, we all have our personal struggles, and if you view yourself as like well, no, everybody loves me, I'm perfect, there's nothing wrong with me, then you know, a little more self-reflection would be really beneficial there, right? Because everybody has things that get on other people's nerves and if you have really strong relationships with family and friends and things like that, you can ask them. You can ask them, like, if there's one goal and one area that you would love to see me grow in, what would that area be? Would it be that you go from zero to 60 really quickly and you react very strongly emotionally, very quickly?

Speaker 1:

Is it that when things get hard, you try to escape because it's just really difficult to handle it and so you're non-confrontational, you don't want to resolve the conflict, right? What are the things that might be difficult for you to bring into a relationship if you want it to be healthy? And so, asking people about that, self-reflecting on, okay, what are the typical arguments? If I look back on the years of friendships, family relationships, marriage, whatever it is, what are the typical things when I look back on that tended to get between me and another person and see if you can figure out a pattern that can be really, really helpful, and see if you can figure out a pattern that can be really, really helpful.

Speaker 2:

Okay, speaking of getting on other person's nerves, you know, just like you said, marriage is such a unique relationship. Before we got married, I never knew I could get on someone's nerves. I've never had this problem, but then I learned something new about myself, thanks to you, zaid.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Speaking of self-reflection, how can somebody do the self-reflection and the self-accountability, find that balance between doing that and not getting stuck in a cycle of self-blame and maybe self-hatred?

Speaker 1:

You know, your first comment about, like, how marriage is such a unique relationship, it's so true, right, because the Prophet says that marriage is half your deen, right, and so once you get married, then guard the other half of your faith.

Speaker 1:

And you know when, before you get married, you hear that hadith and it's like, it's like this motivation of, okay, I want to fulfill half my deen, I want to, you know, get married and everything, but once you're married, you realize that it's because it's hard, that it's half your faith.

Speaker 1:

This is not, this is not going to be something that's easy and something that's so powerful. I was reflecting on this hadith and I was thinking, like you, our faith, our faith journey, is a relationship between us and Allah, but also part of our faith is our relationship with Allah's creation, and there's nobody who we're like in their face and you know, constantly with as much as our spouse, right, and so, giving our spouse their rights and treating Allah's creation well, it makes sense that marriage is going to be half your deed, because it's a big test, right, it's a blessing, but it's a test, you know. And so so, yeah, you know it brings and it brings up a lot of growth, right, where you realize. Oh, I never knew that this could be annoying to somebody right, absolutely, absolutely, 100%, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And so then you said the other question was about how to balance between self-reflection and self-blame, right? So the difference between healthy guilt and unhealthy guilt, self-accountability and self-blame or harming yourself in that process, is what you do with it. So healthy guilt should propel us toward growth and should propel us toward Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, right? So, for example, that would look like okay, I'm reflecting back on my past marriage relationship, whatever, or this argument that I had with a friend or a family member, and I acknowledge that I really didn't communicate the way that I ideally would have, that maybe I got overly emotional, maybe I interpreted what they said in a negative way and I should have given them benefit of the doubt. I acknowledge that I didn't do that, and next time I'm going to try to improve on that. I'm going to go in knowing that their intention is good. I'm going to go in trying to breathe through it so that I don't react emotionally, and right now I'm going to apologize to them for my shortcoming in that situation.

Speaker 1:

That's healthy guilt. It propels you toward growth and change, and it also propels you toward doing something that's pleasing to Allah. Unhealthy guilt is like, and that self-blame idea is I'm just unworthy of love, that I can never do anything right, and sometimes people will bring this into arguments in marriage where, okay, it's clear, I'm just the bad person here, I can't do anything right, and you know, and they bring that in to shut down the conversation. That's not right, where you just make it about yourself and you make it like, oh, I am just not a good person, I am a bad person and I'm hopeless. Okay, well then, what hope do you have for growth in that case? So that's the difference between reflecting on something to allow yourself to grow and blaming yourself so that you actually just stay the same or move backward.

Speaker 2:

Interesting, yeah, especially what you just said about I'm a bad person. It's like what is it? Reverse psychology, or what exactly is it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's kind of like. It's like I'm saying all the bad things already. You can't hurt me anymore, you know like okay, fine, I'm just going to shut down the conversation.

Speaker 2:

It's a way of avoiding the conversation and a way of shutting it down, the conversation and a way of shutting it down, and then the other person starts feeling guilty and, like you, forget what you were talking about in the beginning and now you're busy trying to feel. Try to make them feel right about themselves, right yeah?

Speaker 1:

you end up trying to reassure them, and the issue with that is that a lot of times this comes up in situations where one spouse has a concern, right, so they bring it up and they'll say something like you know, it was really frustrating when I, you know, realized that you didn't do such and such, or you know you did such and such, or whatever it is. They're trying to say like, okay, I felt such and such way about that, and then the person doesn't know how to deal with that. They feel really like angry about it, or they feel frustrated, or they feel badly within themselves, and so, instead of acknowledging the mistake that they made and how they're going to work on it, instead it's okay, I'm always wrong, I'm always a bad person and all that stuff, and so now there's no space for the other person's concern. Now they have to reassure their spouse when meanwhile they were the one who had a concern to come up with first. So it's one of the ways of kind of avoiding the argument.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm. Well, would that also be considered a form of gaslighting too?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, people would kind of use that term. Well, gaslighting would be more like making them think that I guess it could be, because it is kind of making them think that whatever they're saying is not reasonable. Right.

Speaker 3:

And it's the other person's fault, not mine, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So it's kind of a way of gaslighting yeah, I don't use the terminology too often, I think that it's just one of my. It's one of my things. I just feel like people, people use terms and they become really popular after a while and then everything becomes narcissism and gaslighting and all this stuff. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Um, so do you have like stories to share where, uh, somebody, where somebody started doing self-reflection? Or like no, let me rephrase Do you have stories where someone, after a failed relationship, were able to grow and learn something new about themselves and become such a better version of themselves?

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. I see it. I see it all the time in my, in friendships, I see it all the time in in therapy, with my clients. You know, especially people who come into therapy. They are primed for that right Like this is what they want. They want to be able to heal.

Speaker 1:

So I'm trying to think of even a specific example, so someone, someone that I know, you know, whenever I think of, like divorce in I mean, there's so many examples actually really hard. Okay, I'll combine, but like I think of the experiences that I've had, most of them with women, because I tend to work with women and then all my friends are women as well. Right, so I will say that, although there are a lot of brothers who also have this as well, mashallah. But like I thinking of one person, in one person in particular, where, after her divorce, she actually started a she, she was part of a Christian support group for divorcees and then she brought it to the Muslim community and she transformed it so that in like, in the community, we actually have a support group for Muslims who have been through a divorce and she helped to create the curriculum, run the groups, all of these different things. So she used her difficult experience to propel her toward helping others through that same experience, mashallah.

Speaker 1:

I have another person that I know who just seeing you know she and her husband. They got a divorce and her ex and then, and seeing her grow and seeing her deal with it and the challenges of being a single mother so gracefully, SubhanAllah, and seeing her thrive. She wrote a book, she contributed to another book. She has enhanced her personal hobbies in ways that really allowed her to grow in such beautiful ways and to model that for her children. The ways that she's invested in her friendships and her social relationships, the way that she went for another degree and progressed at work, is constantly going to Islamic classes and learning about Islam as a way to get closer to Allah in this process. I mean, I can't even like keep going with the list, right, like so.

Speaker 1:

So I think you know there's a term in trauma therapy that that when somebody goes through a traumatic experience and they come out better on the other side. It's called post traumatic growth and people often think that post traumatic growth is very unique, like there are very few people. But the research has shown that over 50% of people who go through a traumatic experience actually come out better on the other side and I find that very hopeful because a lot of times people feel like I'm in such a dark place in my life. How can I ever get past this? First of all, survive this, but get better through it. People can't imagine it, but it is actually something that's feasible and we see it in every day in our lives, witnessing people. People grow and become better versions of themselves.

Speaker 2:

This is such a great to hear. Honestly, we've never heard this expression. And 50%, that's an amazing percentage. There is hope, I guess. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

That's interesting. Post-traumatic growth that's an interesting term.

Speaker 2:

Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have you on here. You'll find a safe space of listeners who can understand what you're going through. Just shoot us an email with a summary of your story at info at halalmatchca. Do you deal in your line of work with widows and widowers? I do, okay. So how is it different starting over after losing a spouse? How is it different from starting after?

Speaker 1:

divorce. With divorce there's a lot of typically very charged, angry, negative emotion surrounding the relationship, right. So you look back on the marriage and it's very difficult to see the good types right, and to see what got you into that relationship to begin with and everything. And so trust can be very difficult to rebuild after a divorce With a situation where you're grieving the death of a spouse. It's very, very unique. It's not like the death of anybody else in your family. It's not like the death of a parent, even the death of a child, right, it changes every single aspect of your daily life and a lot of times one of the most difficult things about grief after the death of a spouse is that you can only remember the good. You only remember the good things and you only remember now the fact that you don't have any of those good things.

Speaker 1:

And one of the parts of actually going through the grief process is when you can acknowledge some of the difficulties that were a part of your marriage too, to see that person again as a human, to see that person as not perfect, and so that helps you to be able to kind of come to terms with it. And then also, I think that, avoiding memories. In the beginning it tends to be something that a lot of people struggle with or only living in the memories and only living in the memories and only living in the past. People have two different approaches well, multiple, not just two, but these are some of the common ones that I see.

Speaker 1:

Different approaches to grief is avoidance of the memories or only living in the past and in those memories and really having difficulty staying present in the present and looking to the future. So, with grief, being able to explore another relationship, that after a divorce, there's not guilt in exploring a new relationship. There might be fear, trepidation, trust issues and things like that, but there's usually not guilt. But after the death of a spouse there's a lot of guilt because it makes you feel as though does this mean that I no longer miss this person, that I no longer love this person, that they were not really as big of a part of my life? I have to remind myself how big of a part of my life they were, and if I move on or move forward and explore a new marriage, then am I just leaving them behind, and so that makes it a very unique challenge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, going back to what you just said before about humanizing the deceased spouse, I would imagine that person trying to start over and get remarried is probably thinking okay, this next person has to fill the shoes of my previous spouse, my spouse was this wonderful person and now, all of a sudden, maybe they're setting unrealistic expectations of a new spouse. Do you see that happening and what would you say about that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and that's why a part of the grief process is going to be to be able to humanize their spouse, because you can't go into a new relationship with this idolized version of what a spouse should be like when, realistically, even that spouse wasn't fulfilling that right.

Speaker 1:

And so part of that process of knowing that you're ready to look into another marriage is when you're able to acknowledge some of the problems that you had in your marriage, some of the negative times, some of the qualities that you may not have loved about your spouse, as well as the qualities that made you really love them and really enjoy your marriage with them. You have a very unique experience in that, because you actually have a relationship that you felt like was successful. But the key is to make sure that you also realize the parts of it that weren't perfect, because it's already going to be very difficult if you're viewing your next marriage as, like this person has to measure up to my first spouse. Realize that you are different, so you might need something different at this stage of your life too. So the idea of holding a new person to that standard, that might not be, that's not feasible number one, and that might not be what you need at this point in your life either.

Speaker 2:

Well, you know, this reminds me of a hadith that came to my mind while you were talking, where Aisha radiallahu anha, one day she got upset because the Prophet alayhi salam used to compliment Khadija radiallahu anha and she's like didn't Allah replace you with someone better? And he started counting her, like complimenting her and counting her. What made her special? So, um, I think I lost the point I was going with, honestly. But, yeah, yeah, the measuring up, like, um, nobody measured up, uh, for khadijah, right with the prophet, yet he was able to move on on and get again and again, and again.

Speaker 3:

That's a good point.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, and you know, that's the thing is, everybody has unique qualities and they bring unique attributes to a marriage and to a relationship, right? And Khadija radhi Allah was incredibly unique, right? I love that hadith because it was a reminder of everything that she did for him, too, right, where she was the first to support him at a time where he had no supporters, and all of these different things which shows the. I look at that hadith also as look at the impact that being supportive of your spouse can have on their feelings towards you, right, like being a source of support, being a source of strengthening and raising up your spouse. And that's the key in any relationship.

Speaker 1:

Losing a spouse to death, even divorce, is. You might still have feelings for that person, and that's okay. This was a relationship that was a huge part of your life. You might still have some feelings for that person, but the key is is that are those feelings going to get in the way of a new, a new marriage, right? So even in the case of divorce, sometimes people will still have, like you'll remember, you might remember a good time or something like that, and the key in these situations, when you have this feeling, is transform it into da'at for that person.

Speaker 2:

Allah.

Speaker 1:

Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la. Yeah, like if somebody, if your spouse, has passed away, that's a very obvious one. Those feelings, that's a sign. I heard a definition of love, uh, that um of grief, that it's love that has nowhere to go right. So that's when you feel that sense of love, that's your sign to make da'at. It does in in our faith that love has somewhere to go right. So that's when you feel that sense of love, that's your sign to make da'at. It does in our faith that love has somewhere to go and that's toward da'at. That's going to weigh on their scales on the day of judgment. But even in the case of a divorce, especially if they're children from this divorce, making da'at for your ex-spouse, that is also making da'at for your children, right, because you want the best for the father or mother of your children as well. So that's something that can be helpful. Du'a can be a very powerful tool.

Speaker 2:

That's like the epitome of maturity making du'a to the person you just divorced. There's supposed to be some hard feelings, but if you're able to bring yourself and make du'a for them, that's like you've made it, I guess, right. Yeah absolutely Beautiful, beautiful. How about setting up realistic expectations after divorce? Because after divorce, you suddenly feel that, no, because my ex was like this, I don't want this to be in the next one. They have to be this and this and this and this. So how can we set up realistic expectations?

Speaker 1:

one they have to be this and this and this and this. So how can we set up realistic expectations? Yeah, and it's hard, because a lot of times, when you're looking into a new relationship, you're going to see all of the fears that you have. You're going to be very hypervigilant about any sign that they might have something similar to your ex and that's going to either push you away or it's actually going to propel you toward the relationship, because people tend to fall into the same patterns, right? So sometimes it's very difficult to break the pattern of finding things attractive, even if they're not healthy, because they feel familiar. So it's actually very important to be aware of the things that tend to draw you into a relationship and whether those are the things you actually need and whether they're healthy or not. But, yeah, one of the issues can be that you set unrealistic expectations because you have to go into a relationship knowing this person is going to make a mistake and not be afraid of the impact that that mistake can have on you. Because the key is, yes, everybody's imperfect, everybody will make mistakes. But how is this person going to handle the mistake? That's what makes or breaks a relationship, right, how does the person handle a mistake.

Speaker 1:

Okay, this person might've, you know, said something that I found a little bit hurtful. Okay, how do they handle it? How do they handle it when I bring it up? Do they dismiss it? Do they dismiss my emotion, do they dismiss my concern? Or do they turn it back on themselves and say, oh, I clearly am the bad person here, or whatever, and things like that.

Speaker 1:

Maybe this is not going to work and they go to extremes? Or are they able to say, oh, I really didn't intend it like that. I'm really sorry. I'm glad that you told me about it. Is there anything that you need to in this moment? Is this person also willing? I think, especially if you've been through a divorce, going through premarital counseling is really, really essential. So are they willing, in the getting to know each other process, to work with a professional? Because obviously this is going to be a situation where there is naturally going to be baggage that's coming into the relationship and so so that helps also with setting realistic expectations, because a third party, an objective third party, can tell you hey, I think that you're being unrealistic here I remember a story of a client comes to mind right now where they were like working on their marriage and they decided to go to therapy and the therapist he felt that the therapist was blaming him as well.

Speaker 2:

His wife was blaming him. The therapist was blaming him and he felt like he was in the corner trying to defend himself. That's unusual for a therapist right.

Speaker 1:

I would say so unusual. Okay, so here's my thing. I hear that and I think to myself he might really struggle with hearing feedback and any type of feedback that's heard is interpreted as an attack. Because a lot of times therapists are very sensitive about the way that they present feedback right. They're careful, but some people are extremely sensitive and I've had marriage counseling clients where you know there was one in particular where I were in the couple clients where you know there was one in particular where I in the couple, as long as the focus was on what the husband needed to change and we were kind of addressing that, it was fine. As soon as I turned and started to talk about the wife's contribution, the sessions ended like they wow.

Speaker 1:

So so it depends right, it depends on whether a person is ready for it or not. Like sometimes, people come into marriage counseling thinking I'm a hundred percent right, I am like, this person needs to change and that's why we're here. And as soon as they realize, wait, I have something to contribute to. And here's this objective person really telling me that here's something I need to change. They can't, they can't handle it, they're not ready for that, and so they didn't come in to change. They came in to change the other person and so, no matter what they hear, it's going to be interpreted that way as an attack.

Speaker 3:

Interesting, so do they continue with counseling, or do they kind of run through the course or or they start blaming the therapist. This therapist doesn't know what she's talking about and they end blaming the therapist.

Speaker 1:

This therapist doesn't know what she's talking about and they end it right there. It's up to them. It's up to them Because, also, sometimes the fit, you know, and I tend to be a little bit cautious too, when you have Muslim couples come in, I would prefer you see a Muslim counselor, because sometimes there are misconceptions and a non-Muslim counselor might very well side with the woman, right, because they're going to think she's oppressed, right, like there's this natural, you know, like feeling, and so actually the man might be being attacked. It might not be unbiased. A therapist is human and they have their own biases and that's why, so I think, being careful about the fit, and then I would also, in those moments I would have encouraged him talk to the therapist, schedule a one-on-one session with the therapist to share what you're feeling, to share your concern here, and that they might not be understanding your perspective, and then see what comes from it too. That can actually be really a growth opportunity in the therapy.

Speaker 2:

Okay, actually be really a growth opportunity in the therapy. Okay, speaking of therapy, was there like an equivalent to therapy in our Islamic history in terms of marriage counseling?

Speaker 1:

So there's a verse in the Quran where people are encouraged, when there is a marital conflict, to seek advisors, right, one from her family, one from his family and so that was kind of the that's something that was really encouraged.

Speaker 1:

These days it's not a lot of times, unfortunately, families are not equipped to be able to handle it that well, and so a lot of times it's easier to go to somebody who's going to be educated about the approaches and things like that. But it's been a huge part of our tradition to go to people of knowledge and wisdom to seek advice, and so going to people who have Islamic knowledge, to people who you know, like this, is something that is from our tradition. People always go to the companions for advice obviously to the Prophet Muhammad, you know and so seeking advice, the Prophet says that the deen is nasiha. The deen, our faith, is good advice. So giving and taking good advice is something that's highly, highly encouraged. What's different now is that we just have training programs. You know, we have training programs for therapy and things like that, and now, alhamdulillah, we also have training programs that involve Islamic therapy, so that you know, you can incorporate the Islamic element, because that's been missing for a while.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a verse you specifically mentioned. You know the beautiful thing about it is. It says إِيُّ رِيْدَ إِصْلَاحَ يُوَفِّقْ لَهُ بَيْنَهُمَّ. If these two judges from both sides want to do islah, want to mend things, then Allah will put tawfiq in it. But, like you said today, her family take her side, his family takes his side, and then it goes from being a problem between a husband and wife to problem between two families.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, yes, and you know, you know like there are some families where really there are people within the families that are so wise mashallah and are able to really handle it beautifully. And so if you know in your own family that you have access to people like that and that your spouse has access to people like that, then great, Right. But if you don't, you know, then that, and then also sometimes the issue between the two spouses is very personal and the exposure of those issues can be difficult. You don't want to involve anybody that will know this person for life, right. And so meeting with somebody who is completely anonymous, who has confidentiality as part of the rules of their career, can make people feel a little bit more comfortable.

Speaker 2:

Okay, okay, you mentioned trust a few questions ago. How can somebody rebuild trust in a way that's healthy? They want to protect themselves we're talking about after divorce, of course and at the same time, letting vulnerable, like being able to be vulnerable with a new person. So there's this, like there's middle point. How can they find it?

Speaker 1:

And it's again one of the things that takes a lot of work right. I think rebuilding trust is one of the biggest challenges. Once trust has been broken, it's very difficult to rebuild it in a relationship, obviously, but also within a person's heart. You know, and so the first step I would say you know the Rasul sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, when he was asked by a Bed's heart. You know, and so the first step I would say you know the Rasul sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, when he was asked by a Bedouin I have this camel, should I tie her or should I trust in Allah that she's not going to run and just leave her? The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said you tie your camel and you trust in Allah. These are two simultaneous things, and so building trust is something that happens internally, but it's also something that requires action, and so the first thing is building trust in Allah.

Speaker 1:

A lot of times when a person's trust is broken in a relationship with a person, they inadvertently put that broken trust in between them and Allah in their relationship. Because if this person, who I was so close to this, I gave them my life, they were my spouse, I trusted them with everything. If they broke my trust. Who can I trust? Sometimes it even results in them questioning their ability to trust Allah, and what is so hard about that is that is the trust you most need at that point to heal, that Allah is the source of all healing. He's the source of all peace. He's As-Salam right. He's the source of all of these beautiful things that we need the most at these hardest, most difficult times in life, and when a person doesn't have that, that's really difficult. So that's the first thing I would focus on rebuilding your trust with Allah. How to do that? The first thing I would focus on rebuilding your trust with Allah. How to do that?

Speaker 1:

The first that I always encourage is getting to know Allah. You can't trust someone you don't know, and so reinvigorating your relationship with the Quran, with meaning and understanding and the names of Allah, delving into the names of Allah, seeing how they resonate in your life, how you see them manifest in your life, and realizing you trust Allah every single moment, with every single breath. So working on building that trust with Allah first, and then, when you are ready to get to know a new person, you tie your camel right. You tie your camel meaning.

Speaker 1:

How do I get to know this person in a way that I can see if it's worth my trust. So you're going to seek advice from people who know them. You're going to seek advice from people who know you, where you're going to share your experience. You're going to have this person meet those people as well. The judgment call does not only need to be on your shoulders, and I think that the more that we can involve a village for ourselves, then the more helpful that's going to be, because a lot of times after a divorce the self-doubt creeps in, and if you have people help you make a decision in a way that feels comfortable, then it really helps to alleviate some of that self-doubt.

Speaker 2:

Okay, the importance of Shura? Right, yeah, a story comes to mind. I'm sorry, zaid, I'm stealing all the questions, but things are coming to my mind. So a client. She was divorced. We tried to match her with multiple matches and at the end of the day we found a person. We set up a meeting. They spent three hours together and after the meeting I think she said yes I'm not sure about her answer, but he said no because he said she's not ready. I can see she's not ready?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and she's like. I don't want to put her through something similar again. And so how can somebody recognize if they're ready or not? Because that girl came to us she wanted to get married and she didn't know that she wasn't ready.

Speaker 3:

I think, just to add to that, what happened in that situation was that, from the brother's feedback, there was a lot of unloading that happened during those three hours. The first meeting In the first meeting she just unloaded all of her trauma and everything and he was just like, oh my God. It just seemed he was a bit overwhelmed and turned off, unfortunately, and that's why he made the decision to not move forward with that sister.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly what I was. My follow-up to you sharing this was I was going to ask did she spend the time venting Right and so? Because a lot of times that's an indication that you're not ready? I was going to ask did she spend the time venting Right and so? Because a lot of times that's an indication that you're not ready is when you're you, your days are spent thinking about this situation, when it is still everything that you live and breathe, right, where, where is. I can't believe I remember that situation where he said that to me I can't believe that I am going through this and I'm at this age and I went through a marriage and I'm divorced. I can't believe that, like that situation where he said that about me or this person, like going back and you know, thinking about all the arguments, thinking about the things that happen and if it reliving that, that is, that shows that you're still in the trauma. You have not healed from the trauma.

Speaker 1:

If you are living in that and it's constantly coming up in your memories, it's normal for it to come up every once in a while. You smell a scent scent. You smell the scent of your ex's cologne, and it brings, of course, that's going to be normal, right. You go, you see, you drive past the place and you remember something that you went there together at some point. That's normal right. These like little things that bring up memories. That's to be expected. But when it's the first thing you think about when you wake up, it's the last thing you're thinking about when you go to sleep, when you talk to anybody and you unload, and this has become your life, where this is all that you're talking about. That is a very, very clear sign that you're not ready yet.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking about.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned before like you differentiated between regular divorce and divorce because of abuse.

Speaker 3:

Now I'm thinking of my friend my best friend just got divorce.

Speaker 1:

With or without abuse, there is self-esteem work that needs to be done, but with abuse it's a lot more, because abuse and what keeps people in abusive relationships is the feeling that there's an underlying feeling of do I deserve this? Did I do something that brought this upon me? If I had maybe made sure that dinner was ready at a certain time, maybe he wouldn't have berated me and called me names, right, I just need to change that and it'll be better. I just need to do this and it'll be better. And so there's this tendency to really put a lot of responsibility on your own shoulders Now once you leave and you're able to get some space and realize.

Speaker 1:

So actually, a lot of times people come into therapy if they're in abusive relationships and they're like, okay, I'm trying to work on my marriage and everything, and by the end of therapy they end up getting divorced because now they actually realize that they were in an abusive relationship. They didn't realize it before, right. And so once you get, once you are divorced and you're away from this abusive relationship, you can see it through a more objective lens and really start to allow it to click, to think, okay, like it's not normal for somebody to call somebody names or curse somebody out because they didn't have dinner ready. It's not normal to feel like, oh, I have to make sure everything is exactly in the right place before he comes home from work, otherwise he's going to be upset. It's like these things are not normal.

Speaker 1:

So first is being able to understand what is normal and what's not normal. Therapy is a very good place for that. So I would recommend that once. If you have ever been through an abusive relationship and that's a traumatic experience, therapy is going to be really, really important to be able to move past it. And then, because that's important for self-esteem, work. You can't work on your understanding of yourself until you can differentiate what was okay and what was not okay, because if you're blaming yourself like just like we talked about the importance of accountability, being overly accountable for things that are actually not yours to be accountable for, that can be unhealthy too. So that helps to piece it together.

Speaker 2:

Okay, may Allah make it easy for everyone.

Speaker 3:

Amen.

Speaker 2:

Any last advice for our single listeners who are starting over again?

Speaker 1:

May Allah make it easy for you as you embark on this journey. It's definitely a journey. There's a lot of growth that is needed, but viewing it not as I am coming out of a failed relationship, but more that this relationship was a stepping stone as a part of my journey forward and I have learned a lot about myself. I have learned a lot about what I need in a spouse and, even more importantly, I have also learned what I don't need in a spouse, right? So you're going in actually really well equipped with more knowledge of yourself and what you're looking for in a relationship than a lot of other people are going into it with.

Speaker 1:

And so, using this as a time this time after a divorce, before starting to look for someone or in the midst of starting to look for someone prioritize building a strong connection with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and prioritize growing yourself, prioritize building your interests, because you want to go into this relationship as a whole person. You don't want to go into this relationship where I'm trying to fill this void that's now missing because I've been divorced. No, I want to be a whole person and I'm going to go into this relationship to find another whole person so we can build a relationship together. Inshallah, may Allah put barakah in it. Bless it for all of you who are looking for a spouse. May Allah guide you to the spouse who's going to be best for you and your deen and your dunya.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think this episode is going to resonate with a lot of our listeners, like we get and we know that a lot of listeners are starting over. We hear a lot of stories. So I think you've done a phenomenal work, mashallah, and we'd love to have you again maybe in the future to discuss other topics, if you're open to it.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Jazakumullah khair for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with both of you. Jazakumullah khair for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with both of you. Jazakumullah khair.

Speaker 3:

So if anybody is seeking help, seeking professional help, how can they get in touch with you? And just to confirm you do offer virtual counseling, correct Texas?

Speaker 1:

because that's where I'm licensed and right now I'm not taking on new clients because I'm at capacity, but feel free to email me at therapy at sarahsultancom and I will be happy to provide you with a list of referrals. There are a ton of Muslim, wonderful Muslim counselors out there, mashallah. I'm happy to help you find somebody who will be a good match for you in this journey. And if you want just you know information or posts and things like that, my Instagram. I post on there. Sometimes I'm not very consistent, but that's Sana Sultan Therapy on Instagram.

Speaker 2:

Inshallah, we will link your email, your Instagram. Thank you again, jazakumullah khair, thank you to our beautiful listeners and we will see you in the next one, assalamualaikum.

Speaker 1:

Waalaikumussalam.