Diary of a Matchmaker

Considering Marrying a Convert? Listen First w/ Aiah Neamatallah

• Halal Match • Episode 62

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This week, psychotherapist Aiah Neamatallah joins us to talk about what many converts face after the shahada, especially when it comes to marriage, from feeling caught between two worlds to navigating power dynamics in relationships. We dig into what converts should know before getting married, what born Muslims and their parents often overlook, and how communities can do better. Whether you're a convert, marrying one, or just curious, this episode is packed with honesty, empathy, and practical takeaways.

To connect with Aiah and other amazing counselors go to: https://muslimcounselling.ca/

Got a dilemma or story? The Single Muslim Hotline is here for you! We’ll play your anonymous messages in future episodes and offer real talk. Drop us a voice note 👇🏻
https://www.speakpipe.com/DiaryOfAMatchmaker

Speaker 1:

Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba. And I'm Zaid, you're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 2:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 1:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 2:

So let's dive in Bismillah.

Speaker 1:

Assalamu alaikum everyone. Welcome to another episode. My name is Hiba and on the other mic is my husband and co-host, zaid.

Speaker 2:

Assalamu alaikum everyone. Inshaallah, today we have a. We're honored to have a guest, aya Nirmatullah. She is a registered psychotherapist with Canadian Muslim Counseling. She completed her graduate studies in counseling psychology at Yorkville University and one of the segments of people that she works with are converts, so, inshallah, today we'll be focusing a lot on that topic. It's something we haven't explored before, so I'm excited to jump into this. A lot of her work focuses on self-awareness, emotional healing, helping clients build tools that they need to thrive, all while staying grounded in Islamic values. So thank you for coming on to the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Welcome Aya. How are you? Jazakumullah khair, assalamualaikum, Heba and Zaid, I'm very honored to be here with you and Jazakallah khair for the introduction.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for accepting our invitation. Okay, let's get right into it.

Speaker 2:

So how have you seen the Muslim community romanticize the convert journey while at the same time falling short when it comes to things like marriage support?

Speaker 3:

It's a privilege, to be honest, to work with converts. I feel very small. When I'm in the presence of a convert as a community, I feel like we're not doing the best that we should be doing when it comes to their support, their welcoming, their existence around them when they need us At first is the cheer and the Allahu Akbar and welcome in. And everyone has goosebumps I do too, but because I work with them on a daily and weekly basis, I can see their struggles from both sides, from their own family of origin and how they're trying. Where do we belong exactly? Do we belong back where we came from or do we belong with our new community? So it is a struggle, subhanallah.

Speaker 1:

Are there a lot of converts, by the way, in Canada and the States?

Speaker 3:

SubhanAllah, there is a decent number. They're beautiful people. Allahumma wa barak, especially after the genocide and the war happening right now, there are more. And allahumma wa barak genocide and the war right now happening right now, there are more, and it's all Allah not not anything of the existing Muslims work unfortunately, we haven't said the best example, unfortunately.

Speaker 2:

So what is the common thread that you find with regards to converts when they seek your help?

Speaker 3:

So my work is a wide spectrum of issues and challenges. Everyone brings their own baggage, whether it's their personal trauma, whether the struggle again with their families. A lot of them, once they announce their conversion to Islam or acceptance of Islam, they become really attacked, expelled from their heritage, from their family, their possessions taken away. So it's yeah, there are a lot of trauma around that and that's why I'm saying the Muslim community is really falling short in providing this strong support. So it's a wide, wide variety of issues. And this is as individuals I'm not even talking about couples. I meet individuals, I meet couples, I meet families.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, you said their possessions are taken away from them.

Speaker 3:

If it's a car, it's taken away. If they're kicked out of the house, they're on their own. If the reason or one of the ways they were introduced to Islam is by knowing a partner, so again it's you're on your own with that person, whether it's a male or a female. Go figure out a new life on your own.

Speaker 1:

May Allah make it easy for them. Ya Rabb, ya Rabb ameen. So, when it comes to marriage, converts seeking marriage what are the struggles?

Speaker 3:

that come with that. I think the first struggle is the convert themselves seeing themselves as not good enough. I heard it, I heard it before from converts as in I am not good enough. As a born into muslim which is not true at all at all I could say that it's a complete opposite. Sometimes, um, a lot of times it it impacts their, their confidence, it impacts what they're bringing into the relationship. Um, it's always a struggle.

Speaker 3:

If they start on this note, like I'm not good enough, I am a secondhand in, like a citizen in this, in this relationship, it just drags into more problems, and I'm talking about women, men and women equally. If I'm not going into this relationship feeling that I'm of value, I'm adding a lot into this relationship, it will cause a lot of damage lack of confidence, lack of self-esteem, codependency, like we call it in psychotherapy, enmeshment, too dependent on my partner. There are no set boundaries, no healthy boundaries. I would say it's just a series of problems from one thing to the other. If you want to even drag it more, it impacts their children as well. Subhanallah, it just it doesn't end.

Speaker 1:

Wow, I would have assumed that, like converts are usually looked at as a clean slate. They have a clean slate. They are better than the rest of us, so they're held at higher standards. That's what I would assume.

Speaker 3:

I was just amazed that they want to come and speak with me, because I'm always and forever regarding them as much better, to be honest, much, much better, because they're the ones who went out and sought truth and they're the ones who, of course, with Allah's generosity and mercy and guidance and everything Allah's the best of planners, of course they put the work I was born into Muslim Like I didn't do anything. Subhanallah. So you would think, you would think, but they have their own struggles. They have their own struggles from their community and from the Muslim communities, subhanallah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I feel like the clean slate, the phrase that you just used that gets probably thrown around a lot where it has an impact. So what impact do you feel this assumption that converts are just a quote-unquote, clean, no blank slate have on the way they're treated in marriage conversations? Because I feel like that really sometimes can set them up to be taken advantage of in some circumstances.

Speaker 3:

I think, in my experience working with converts, I always saw it, I always experienced it with the convert from you need to be the better person, you need to be maybe unrealistic. Um, you need to be the better person, you need to be maybe unrealistic. So my expectations from the person in front of me becomes unrealistic. He's still a human being or she's still a human being. What happens is they're clean, like a clean slate, because allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, granted them this blessing, not because there's. At the end of the day, they're human beings like us. They sin, like us, like they. It just becomes double standards sometimes. Yeah, which?

Speaker 1:

is totally unfair. What about the complexities of seeking marriage Like? How do they, how do they seek marriage? Are they like, accepted and welcomed in the, in the, in their new community, or are born Muslims, hesitant to marry their daughters to them, or like their sons or whatever?

Speaker 3:

It's a case by case, I believe from my humble experience. It's a case by case whether the family is mature enough to understand what Islam is all about and how welcoming Islam should be. But a lot of families, especially traditional Muslims, are worried about their level of Islam compared to the converts, and that's exactly how it's seen, unfortunately, even though the truth could have been, could be completely the opposite, um. But they would make it harder for a convert to um to be welcomed and to be given this chance, an opportunity of growth, which is very unfortunate. In my work I deal more with, like, my caseload is more of after marriage. After marriage, and maybe this will come up in the discussion but how the relationship becomes out of balance as well.

Speaker 3:

In terms of what, of what? In terms of the, for example, if it's a lady who, a girl, who just accepted Islam and going into a Muslim family, they accepted her, they are her primary source of knowledge, so they will be representing Islam in all forms, shape and messages, knowledge, which is, I find it, a big problem, very problematic For a Muslim, let alone a convert, to seek Islamic knowledge from a human being like just a regular human being and putting them on the pedestal like they are. My knowledge, this is a crisis Because what I'm working with on a daily basis is, like we always say, the people, the Muslims, do not represent Islam. Unfortunately, right now, this is a crisis that we're all living through, so it becomes even tougher for converts to live through this, and there's a lot of brainwash, a lot of brainwashing. This is Islam, this is what is expected, and when we dissect it and we analyze it together, it's all cultural, traditional rituals.

Speaker 2:

So they're not directing them to a scholar, someone of knowledge, they're just feeding them that cultural understanding of Islam instead.

Speaker 3:

Which does not happen automatically like that, because they are stuck in their own ways and it takes a long time From my experience, it takes a long time for them to come out of this safety shell because he or she were safe for the safety zone. So to figure out that what's happening is not right and we need to seek knowledge out through a scholar to a ma'am, a sheikh, a community in the masjid, community in the Islamic center. It takes a lot of courage to do that.

Speaker 2:

So, given you've seen a lot in the marriage phase, what are some steps a convert could take to prevent some of those pitfalls, some red flags that they can look out for to protect themselves from situations like that?

Speaker 3:

Marriage is marriage, marriage is marriage, so the process for, like premarital therapy, premarital assessment would be the same for all. In my opinion, seek their own path of knowledge and do not associate it with a human being, with a partner or the family member or a regular student of knowledge. This will make a huge difference in reducing the trauma that they might be about to experience they might be about to experience.

Speaker 1:

So, do you like, have you witnessed a situation where, because of the way Islam was introduced to this new convert and his interactions with his new family, have there been cases where they actually ended up just leaving Islam?

Speaker 3:

A few cases popped to mind. They do not leave Islam alhamdulillah, but they're not practicing the way they should be. They're not. There is a lot of questioning. Why is this happening to Muslims? We're now talking about aqidah. We went back to the basics and the aqidah is very questionable. Why is this happening to me? And instead of using the right terms, the right words, it all comes back to why is Allah doing this? I don't understand. It's just so much chaos and unfortunately, yeah, the aqidah is the victim here. In my experience, nobody left, but then they need a long journey of coming back to where they started.

Speaker 1:

SubhanAllah, a case comes to mind where this guy married a convert and then he took a second wife secretly and then ended up divorcing his convert wife.

Speaker 3:

How local tell us about it, not surprised.

Speaker 1:

Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have you on here. You'll find a safe space of listeners who can understand what you're going through. Just shoot us an email with a summary of your story at info at halalmatchca.

Speaker 2:

If you could let's talk kind of hypothetical here If you could design a pre-marriage course just for converts, what lessons or conversations would you make sure to include?

Speaker 3:

Beautiful question.

Speaker 3:

I love that In my work I always, during supervision meetings, we have these hypothetical cases.

Speaker 3:

If we have, like our own center for marriage, if we have our own center for inpatient for Muslims, if we have. So in this situation there's nothing better than to follow the prophetic approach Welcoming, compassionate, accepting of all Our Prophet peace be upon him used to pay attention, be present and be compassionate and kind to everyone, to the old, to the young, to the sick, to the healthy, to the Muslims, to the non-Muslims, to the enemies and friends. So, from that perspective, if I am designing a program for converts, the first, the arching message would be welcoming will be the true welcoming accepting as you are. You are not less of anything. I'm actually, I'm the one who's less. Probably what would also be in mind is having a body like creating a body system like the Ansar al-Muhajirin, in a sense, like a convert would have someone who is willing is not just a name or a title or a position that is willing to be working with them, in supporting, in growing together, in just nurturing each other.

Speaker 1:

What about Muslims, born Muslims, who are considering marrying a convert? What advice would you give them?

Speaker 3:

Letta Qula.

Speaker 2:

That's the best advice. You can't beat that advice, I mean I feel that applies to anybody who's getting married, right?

Speaker 3:

And this is my now, all the time, for, like whoever is seeking marriage or getting married, because if I'm not fearful of Allah in my actions, what else is going to be my standard, to be honest? What else is going to be my standard, to be honest, what is going to hold me accountable or or prevent me from hurting someone or prevent, prevent me from overpassing anything that I'm not allowed to do? The taqala? Uh, you're not. You're not better than them by any means. And um, when I was actually also saying a taqala in my mind, I was saying start your knowledge seeking journey, become students of knowledge. Know that whatever you do is going to be what is Hujjah Lakum, hujjah Lakum and not Hujjah Lakum. So it's going to be counted against you? Not, probably, it would be counted against you, not because I don't want to paint this pessimistic, it couldn't be, it couldn't be written in your good deeds, the book of good deeds, inshallah. But um, the taqwa comes first yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I would say, especially maybe for us arabs. We should learn how to say I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Oh my God, I cannot scream it enough.

Speaker 1:

It's like it's a shame to say I don't know. I have to know everything.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. I have so much more to say in this department. I come from a place where it's absolutely I but haram to say I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yes, okay, can you maybe share a story anonymously? Of course, that demonstrates the maybe, the challenges and the strengths that a convert is to go through, their experience, especially if it's marriage-related.

Speaker 3:

A very strong story comes to mind where a person, a particular person, came from a dysfunctional family of origin and subhanAllah was introduced to Islam through a friend at a high school and she became interested in Islam and she started to grow to just seek knowledge and try to understand what was. What's it all about? Accepted Islam and said her shahadaah, took her shahadah, mashallah tabarakallah, but she was in hiding years for a while and it was very, very traumatic, very anxiety provoking, because she would be going above and beyond to fast in a very non-Islamic household, fast in a very non-Islamic household, and she knows that if anyone becomes aware of that, it's going to be very, very problematic. Her hiding years were not easy, were not easy whatsoever.

Speaker 3:

And when that friend came along after and proposed was Muslim, but this actually cost her living with her parents because they did not accept. They did not accept her Islam, they did not accept her to marry a Muslim, so they kicked her out. Then she got married. She got married into a Muslim family, the husband's family, who took her in. Of course there is a lot of traumatic details, but again, a lot of what I was saying that there is a lot of cultural aspects and just blockage on both sides, whether the non-Muslim family or the Muslim family. Yeah, she's a hero, to be honest. Mashallah, allahumma, grant her steadfastness, ya.

Speaker 1:

Rabb. I mean please tell me she's happily married, that her new family is good.

Speaker 3:

There was a lot, a lot, a lot, after a lot of years, to be honest. Alhamdulillah, she is happily married, allahumma bai'at.

Speaker 2:

If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't know where to seek help, let us help you. We can be your personal matchmakers. Visit us at halalmatchca and book a free call with us. Just hear that story. I know I do that a lot. I'll admit it. Whenever I meet a convert, I just want to know what their story is.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, actually last week on this podcast we had a financial expert who's also a convert, jesse Reitberger. It's amazing, his story was like something like he went after he converted to Islam so he was working with like banking and investments and stuff and he went to kind of get new clients in his new masjid. But people didn't want to talk to him because they're like all you do is haram, you're working with haram. And then he started studying and learning about what he was doing and now, mashallah, he offers investment advice to Muslims. Allahumma barak.

Speaker 3:

Wow, wow, mashallah. May Allah guide him and guide us all. Mashallah, this is amazing. Their work, I'm telling you, their work, is just very crucial. It comes out of sincere love and wanting to excel. Mashallah, tawarq Allah, it's just inspiring Allahumma barak, Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So a question about the parents now, parents who are expecting or like welcoming a convert into their family. Let's say they, their daughter is marrying a convert, their son is marrying a convert. What advice would you give them?

Speaker 3:

Have mercy and again it sounds like a cliched statement for all couples, but welcome that member as your son or daughter. But again, on an even more responsible or accountable note is you might be the source for that person to pick up a behavior or a belief or a statement that could send you straight to Jannah, because they are in dire need to hear that and without this advice, or with the opposite advice, you're sending them the other way, subhanallah. So giving this growth opportunity with compassion, with mercy again, is super important patience, I would say, also is important to be patient with them.

Speaker 1:

They're still learning.

Speaker 3:

They have a long way to go, I guess yeah, one uh, yeah, I like a lot here for extracting patience from mercy. I, I believe when you're, you have mercy, you have patience, you have a lot to give, you're going to be generous, you're going to give opportunities and chances and the patience is super important.

Speaker 2:

Super important too, yeah, so what's if you could just say one small change the Muslim community could do to provide more support for converts? What would that be?

Speaker 3:

Stop asking them about their progress.

Speaker 2:

Right. I could imagine that makes them feel defensive probably.

Speaker 3:

It makes them feel anxious, makes them feel we're missing out, we don't know we are starting the race when a lot of people are in the middle of the race or halfway or end of the race. I heard that from converts where I want to be a good Muslim, I want to work in dawah, I want to um, do um, everything that other muslims do. And then when their friends or when their family members start asking where you at and did you learn quran? Did you, uh, learn arabic? Did you hear to scholar, fulan or scholar or um, this is um right, are you an alima?

Speaker 3:

yet right, you should study maliki, fake or something which madhab, or what exactly exactly it happens, wallahi, and and it becomes very, it's very anxiety provoking to muslims, like born into muslims and uh for, uh for converts. It's, it's very overwhelming, very overwhelming, and and sometimes hinders them from like okay, well, regardless how many steps I'm going to take, I'm still going to be behind. Then procrastination comes, because procrastination is nothing but anxiety. So it's just okay, I, I'm not moving, I don't want to do it.

Speaker 1:

I feel like we ask from converts more than we ask ourselves like, are we actually learning fiqh and Quran and doing da'wah?

Speaker 3:

I don't know where we get this guts and audacity to do that, subhanallah.

Speaker 1:

This reminds me of a friend who recently or more of an acquaintance daughter she just recently converted from Judaism to Islam. Yeah, after she saw the resilience of the Palestinian people, Subhanallah. So what's something you think the Muslim community is getting right, actually, and you would like to see more of?

Speaker 3:

The programs that are at the masajid that I'm starting to see a growth in. Whether you are a convert or whether you are a Muslim like, born into Islam and you would like to learn more and be a student of knowledge. It's beautiful initiatives and I would love for all the masajids to have it. It's very, very crucial in this time because our aqidah is at risk. There's so much noise out there for all of us and just to assume that we know what La ilaha illallah, muhammad Rasulullah, means in how we say it, how we apply it, how we live by it, how we align our activities with it, is an understatement. We were very far yeah.

Speaker 2:

So let's say your DMs. They have flooded with converts looking for hope. What's the one liner you would send to all of them?

Speaker 3:

You're the best there you go. You know what else I would say? I wish? Mashallah tabarakallah. I wish I had a chance to have all my sins forgiven and start from scratch. And that's why you're just, you're the best. You have it. Mashallah tabarakallah, and that's why you're just, you're the best you have it.

Speaker 2:

mashallah tabarakallah, if anybody is seeking your services, wants professional help, how can?

Speaker 3:

they find you and reach out to you. So I am part of the Canadian Muslim Counseling Team. Our services is virtual, which is great, alhamdulillah, because it reaches all over the world. Alhamdulillah, our website is canadianmuslimcounselingca. We have, alhamdulillah, a beautiful selection of therapists. We have imams who are therapists, we have psychologists, we have social workers, masha'allah catering to many languages as well, which is a huge privilege, would love to everyone is welcome, jazakumullah khair, for breaking the stigma here, because it's very much needed in the Muslim community.

Speaker 1:

Jazakumullah khair for sharing your knowledge and message of hope, and to any converts out there listening, like Aya said, you're the best. May Allah keep you steadfast and reward you with a spouse that will, I guess, know how to say I don't know Exactly, exactly Together. You could say, I guess know how to say.

Speaker 3:

I don't know exactly exactly together you could say I don't know and start your journey together, empowering each other, nurturing each other. Mashallah, tabarkallah, for Allah's sake, ya rabb, may Allah accept and to our beautiful listeners.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. Inshallah, we'll see you in the next episode. Assalamualaikum.