Diary of a Matchmaker

Can a Strong Independent Woman Be a Wife? w/ Hafsa Taher

• Halal Match • Episode 64

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She’s got the career, the home, the passport stamps.. so does she really need a husband? Today we sit down with Hafsa Taher, a life coach for high-achieving women to talk about what happens when Miss Independent starts considering marriage. We unpack why checklists might be ruining your love life, how success can clash with surrender, and what healthy partnership really looks like. And brothers, if a woman’s success intimidates you, this one might just shift how you see strength, love, and leading together.

Follow Hafsa on Instagram for more great tips and advice. 

Got a dilemma or story? The Single Muslim Hotline is here for you! We’ll play your anonymous messages in future episodes and offer real talk. Drop us a voice note 👇🏻
https://www.speakpipe.com/DiaryOfAMatchmaker

Speaker 1:

Now it's become. I want this man who's everything for me, who's my best friend, who's my therapist, who's my intellectual partner. I mean, these are all cups that can be filled by different people, other people too, shutting down conversations too soon, being like, oh, he said this, it could be a beige flag, it could be a earth flag, but oh, red flag. Run away from this, block this person. Or he said this right, instead of being open and being like, hey, I'm curious. What do you mean by that? Can you help me understand where that's coming from? What's marriage going to add to it that I don't already have?

Speaker 2:

You won't know that answer until you actually get married. As-salamu alaykum everyone. Welcome to another episode. This is Zaid, and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba. As-salamu alaykum.

Speaker 2:

Today we're lucky to have Hafsa Tahir. She is a certified life coach and business strategist. Also mashallah a successful business owner. Through her coaching business, she has mashallah mentored many women through life and business. She has Mashallah mentored many women through life and business. Now, as a newlywed, she also offers insight and guidance around courtship and relationships. She shares many personal experiences and uses an approach that is rooted in Islamic values. So thank you for coming on to the podcast Sabsa.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2:

No problem. So, mashallah, you've been doing this work for a while, as we can see. I know we've been following each other on Instagram, supporting one another through our entrepreneurial journeys, but is coaching or mentoring something that you've always had your mindset on, or is it something that just evolved organically with your audience?

Speaker 1:

A lot of it was really organic, because my past is I used to be in IT and that black and white thinking came really naturally to me. If it's plugged in, it's supposed to work. Sometimes it still doesn't, but I thought, you know, this is a lot more simpler than people. So I stuck to IT and then started a business in 2019 making handmade gifts, and then 2018, quit that business and switched to marketing and teaching. So it's been a journey, it's been a, it's been a self-discovery. It's always been like I've always thought of it as okay, I have this experience, I've collected all these points. You know how in a game, and then, like, once you hit this milestone, the next level opens up. So and then I would ask myself what's the next level here? You know, so a lot of it was just kind of figuring it out step by step, day by day.

Speaker 3:

You make it sound easy.

Speaker 1:

No, oh my God, you don't know how many nights I'm like. What am I?

Speaker 3:

supposed to do? I'm sure, I'm sure it's not, but working with high achieving women, what patterns have you noticed, especially when it comes to relationships and love?

Speaker 1:

You know, being in school, being successful in business like, and relationships like very different set of like skills and talents right Like I can talk about from my personal experience. I was like a straight, a student, right Like 4.0 GPA and I wasn't even trying. Sometimes I'm just like I just want to be done. I had a, I had an internship job lined up. My internship was like come back to us when you graduate, you have a job offer letter from us and I'm just like man don't care about my GPA and I still ended up for the 4.0 GPA, right. So school was really easy, alhamdulillah, like that's one of the things like I just kind of knew how to navigate relationships, on the other hand, was like there was no guidebook, there was no textbook, there was no answer cheat sheet. I'm like I don't know what's happening here. Right, because, because it's very different skill sets and it's also very different in terms of the kind of stuff you need to work on yourself as as a life coach, as a certified life coach and also someone who's been into coaching therapy myself for for a lot um, I've learned these things like in the business, you are like the decision maker, you are like deciding how things go. You're also a rigid like you. You may be a beginning of the year, january. You're like I want to make 100k, I want to make 10k, right, and then you're working like a plan, like plan a, plan b, plan c. Okay, this didn't work, q1's done, what do we need to change? Right? So it's a lot of like um, you are the decision maker, there's a lot of control, you have a vision and you are like you have a timeline to execute. You're driven by outcome.

Speaker 1:

But in a relationship, especially in a marriage, it's completely the opposite. It's a lot of just letting go, like just surrendering. It's also co-creating and the process can be really like uncertain, sometimes can feel even messy, like there's all these big emotions that are coming up and you're navigating it with another person, even if this person is from the same village as you, from the same school as you, from the same. Like you were born in the same hospital and your parents have been neighbors for the entire entire life. Right, even at that point, like they are still very different people. You both are very different people and they come with their own perspective, with their own like upbringing, with their own. How would life's tree given them you know how much lessons they've learned right.

Speaker 1:

So, in a marriage, like something that can be really hard for like someone like me was like surrender, right, and I think a lot of like high achieving women, women who have become used to like being in charge uh, struggle with like you're surrendering to, to the will of allah, you're practicing there's a level of trust and letting go that the business sort of demands. What like relationships. Next level, it just becomes everything becomes personal and you know that whole hyper independence that you get. You're able to do in like a business with, with in a marriage or in a relationship, you're learning to like co-create, like hey, let's figure this out together, right.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes, like that protection from like disappointment and hurt comes up like and you don't. A lot of people are scared of like and I'm sure we'll talk more about this later of like letting that guard down. They're like I'm gonna stay in charge, I'm gonna stay in control, because that's the only way I've known to like take, take care of myself, uh. But when you let your guard down, when you are obviously with, with, with like taking your time, your camera, when you let your guard down, you're able to soften, to trust, to be seen. It's just completely different. What ends up happening is just absolutely beautiful, but you have to allow for that.

Speaker 2:

For sure. You touched upon so many things that I want to unpack right now, but I think, mashal, you haven't been married too long. So, as you mentioned in your bio, you are still a newlywed relatively speaking, but prior to getting married I believe your business was pretty successful. It was well established and oftentimes with girls that becomes a major search criteria in assessing the right spouse that they want someone who has achieved a similar degree of success, whatever it might be entrepreneurial, it could be academic, social, whatever it might be. Was that the case with you to a certain degree, or was it not?

Speaker 1:

I had been looking for a long time so I really had the time to be like what is really important for me. There's actually a book called A Case for Settling for Mr Good Enough.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I saw that in your Instagram stories.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right, that's one book and there's another one called Elizabeth Gilbert the name's escaping me, but I'll come back. There's another one called, where she explores the need for marriage, like why get married? I mean, in her relationship she has everything right that we Muslims don't have, but she has everything that she and her only question is should I sign that paper or not? She goes through this entire journey in the entire book trying to answer that question for herself. What I really loved about and to come back to your question is understanding what your criteria is right, like what is marriage going to do for me? What do I want it to do for me? What, what? How is it going to add value to my life? What am I looking for? And at the end of the day, like having having all these criteria, you know, when you're younger, you're like I want somebody who is this much taller than me, because if the photos would look really cute. You know all these like metrics, like like metrics that that look, that sound pretty amazing. But as you get older, as you keep looking, you're like what is it really boiled down to? What is it really boiled down to? For me, it was openness somebody who's open, who's willing to, who's open to learning, who's open to like exploring different thoughts that they probably have never had. They might say, hey, I've never had that experience. Can we talk about this? Just that openness was kind of like what I was looking for, without even having put it in words. But when you see it, you see it right. When you see it in other people and when you see the opposite somebody saying, no, I don't get this, I don't believe this. End of story, right. So I think one of my main criteria is just that openness. Being able to like have a conversation versus like this is what I think. End of discussion.

Speaker 1:

So my criteria wasn't like these and has to make this much money has to. I mean, you know what? Yes, you have to be practical and be like can this man support a family and things like that? If you want to move out, can we? Can this man allow for that right? His income allow for that? But at the end of the day, like I think I become also someone older, someone gone to therapy, coaching myself I really had to dig down and say what is that one thing that I? What is that one thing that I want? What is that one thing that I feel like is the indicator that allows me to be like okay, I can trust this person because he's so open, he's so willing to like, listen, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I'm glad you touched on the topic of the need for marriage.

Speaker 1:

How can you tell the difference between someone who says how can you tell the difference between someone who says a girl who says I don't need a man in my life as a survival mechanism, maybe because of trauma or rejection or bad experiences and between it coming from a place of ultra feminism about this, because this comes up a lot, especially in the ultra-feminism you mentioned. Like I mean, we have been brainwashed with this messaging. We live in this environment, right? So even when you were little, there might have been cartoons with the supplemental messaging, right, about the woman being hyper-independent. I want to make sure we don't dismiss that there's been trillions of dollars being spent on this right for a reason, right? So, uh, I want to make sure we don't we don't just like assume that we came up with this on our own and then women are all are deciding this on their own, like these were thoughts that were implanted without even them thinking. So that's one. And as adults, we got to choose and say okay, do I want this thought in my head or not? Do I have to unlearn and undo this thinking that was ingrained into me because of media or whatever right Propaganda that I didn't even realize came into me. I started thinking this way, but also I have this theory about how we came up to this thinking in the Muslim environment and some of it might be just generalization for my part Muslim environment and some of it might be just generalization for my part.

Speaker 1:

But so what happened is they were the parents, our mothers, our aunts and grandmothers that had very less control or say in a marriage, right. So they felt like very cornered, they felt like helpless, they felt isolated in a marriage and they felt like they didn't have much of a say in the marriage or a position in a marriage, right. So what they told their daughters to do is go get an education. Go get an education so you can be, you can rely on yourself when you need to, and you can. You won't be as helpless as I am, you won't be as cornered and isolated as I am that I don't have options. Now I want to make sure you have the options. So what the mothers, aunts and grandmothers maybe mothers, aunts, that that generation did is they sent their daughters to go get education. They said become independent.

Speaker 1:

So you have a plan B. And I heard this scholar once say like, if you are going into a marriage with a plan B ready, how committed are you to that option? A right. Like if you're already saying I have my backup plan ready, I'm going to go into this. Like how committed are you going to show up as if you already have a plan B. That's solid, that's rock solid. Like you have a plan B of like, oh, if this doesn't work out, I know what I'm going to be doing. Like that's the kind of mindset that can be very detrimental to a marriage. Right, because you're not fully going in to be like inshallah, we'll make this work. Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it sounds like an exit strategy for our business, right Like that's what you do for business, but not for relationship.

Speaker 1:

That's right, yeah, and it's not very healthy, right. Like I know. I know a lot of women I talk to are financially stable, they can travel on their own, they're saving, they're investing, they're buying homes right. And the question does come up like, where do we go from here? Like we have sprung from one extreme of like women feeling isolated, women feeling cornered and women feeling pressured, having no say in a relationship, having no options, to other extreme of like I've got it all Right.

Speaker 1:

And I have to say, like I've heard women say, I have so much stability in my life. If I want to risk it, it has to be worth it. Right, it comes from a place of self-protection, and maybe it's not so much the mothers who have done this. It's also like watching the mother go through something, watching an aunt go through something, watching his sister go through something. It's like I'm not going to be that fool who puts my heart on the line. You know I'm going to be smart here. I'm going to protect myself, right. Like it's a lot of self-preservation, I feel like from women and this doesn't get talked about, unfortunately. It really is coming from a place of like I want to protect myself, but then, like we've seen those two extremes where women want to be self-developed, hyper-independent, and women being having no say in a relationship.

Speaker 1:

But Islam is a theme of like balance, where men and women, they both have value, they both have roads to play that contribute to the whole, and it's not about one being better.

Speaker 1:

It's about, like, unlearning that survival mechanism instead of shaming it and understanding that it was about like protection, which I don't need anymore, right, which which can be like, okay, they needed it. But also, I have the tools to learn how to find the right person that aligns with my values. I have the tools to, like you know, take care of my, my emotions and my emotional well, my values. I have the tools to, like you know, take care of my, my emotions and my emotional well-being. I have the tools to seek the help I need, right. So, um, practical steps would be like unlearning that thinking if that's something that the listeners are struggling with to be like, why do I need a man, you know, um, going for therapy, like either well, or working with coaches, to be like, okay, help me unpack my values, help me unpack, like my worldview, um and ally, and because, like, healing and growth, can support your values, rather than being pulled away from it, subhanallah.

Speaker 3:

it feels like, uh, in today's culture, each gender is operating from a place of suizan in the other gender and, like you said, I have to have a backup plan. I have to protect myself. They're going to take advantage of me. I'm going to end up in a bad situation and you know what you were just saying about, like mothers and grandmothers and aunties pushing the daughters to get education. I remember growing up I would always used to hear it from my mother the most important thing for a girl in her life is her degree. I never heard it's marriage, never heard it's her home and her family. You have to get an education, have that degree, yeah.

Speaker 1:

SubhanAllah, subhanallah, and you know, yes, there's a place for it. But in the context, in a bigger conversation, like, yes, you know, one of the things like we always got what we heard is what, if you know, God forbid, like your husband gets sick or he gets into an accident, like, and you need to become the breadwinner you should be, you should be educated enough to be able to earn the living you know, and, yes, that seems a very, it seems like a situation that some people, some women, have fallen and gotten into. You know, life has tested everybody differently. But, like I hear you, it needs to be in a bigger context of like, how can you become a strong woman, you know, in terms of like, being a strong partner, being a strong mother, right In the context as well, yes, yeah, it sounds like everybody's just kind of speaking from their own personal experiences or whatever that might be.

Speaker 2:

So I often find times with girls whether it's in my personal journey, trying to get married and even professionally that they conflate success with compatibility that much like girls. These days they're becoming business owners, ceos, politicians, and the list goes on and for them, a compatible spouse is someone who's at that level or close to that level, because only that kind of person will understand them and the struggles that they've taken to get there. So do you feel there's some truth to that, or is that just ego talking?

Speaker 1:

You know, when we think of a successful woman, okay. So when people say I teach Instagram marketing, right? So when people say I want a successful, I want an Instagram, that's like working, they only think of followers, right? Like, I want 100K followers, I want 10K. I don't know if you remember the time when you had to get 10K followers in order to get swipe up, right? So that became the only metrics people were after, right? So what I call these vanity metrics yes, the numbers look good, but at the end of the day, what's that doing for your business?

Speaker 1:

So sometimes we take one metric and make that all about that thing. So we take the successful woman and make it all about her. But that's just one aspect of her. She's successful and she could be's successful and she could be practicing and she could be humble and she has, she has. She's emotionally intelligent to be able to put her ego aside and have an open conversation. So I feel like, when, generally, like when we talk about a successful woman, we kind of put her in a box that has all these, all these assumed characteristics that come with it. Successful, as in she wants to be in charge. Successful, as in she has her ego up her nose, right. So we come up with all these attributes to assume what a successful woman looks like, when in fact, she could be a completely different definition, like Katija is the only one who is successful. Right, we don't associate all of those, but that's the culture that's doing that.

Speaker 2:

So is there some truth to that that compatibility involves assessing whether or not that person is at the same successful level?

Speaker 1:

I think it's really important for the person woman looking to get married or the man looking to get married really think about what are the values I'm looking for. Values, right, and that could be. And the same thing with, like someone saying, oh, I want a religious person. What does that mean? I want a successful person. What does that mean, right? Does it mean like numbers, or that he has to, he has to earn this much, but he could be like drowning in debt, right, right, like you have to see the full picture and really understand what are you looking for? Am I looking for safety? Am I looking for financial security? Right? So am I looking to have intellectual conversations with this person? And that's great, and maybe this person doesn't have to have achieved what you have in order to have intellectual conversations. Right, and and again, like, even when people say I want a religious man, what does that mean? Because somebody could be playing the hajj, but somebody could be really good at memorizing, like learning new things on the go, somebody could be really good at like giving charity, right, there's so many facets, there's so many layers to something like successful, religious, like it really comes down to being, like, what do I want in a man? What do I want in a woman? And sometimes you know that book I mentioned, uh, committed, that's what it's called liz gilbert committed, which talks about what does a marriage do? And we have the.

Speaker 1:

The role of marriage has changed over the year, over the decades. Right at one point, marriage was I'll marry this nice guy I know from middle school or elementary school. I've known him all my life and he's good. I'll marry him because this is what we do next. Now it's become I want this man who's everything for me, who's my best friend, who's my therapist, who's my intellectual partner. I mean, these are all cups that can be filled by different people. Other people too, like you, want to have this intellectual conversation. You can join this, this club where you have these intellectual conversations, and this person, this man, this woman you have in your life can, can be there for your to co-create life, for safety, for creating beautiful moments together. We can have other people to fill in some of these cups. I feel like. So, yes, if you're looking for a spouse who's exactly at the same level as you, you might be saying no to people that actually might have become like, might have been an amazing potential spouse. You might just be throwing away opportunity.

Speaker 2:

I would say yeah, hiba, and I joke sometimes that sometimes with our clients it feels like they're ordering a burger. You know they want all the right condiments, they want the meat cooked a certain way, they want the perfect order. But we're talking about human beings, we're not talking about food, and human beings don't come that way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, you know, like that's also like really having to dig deep and say I want somebody who's like like somebody, a woman or a man, saying I want somebody who's like 5'10, really digging deep and saying why, why is that important for me? Right, and maybe like when they dig deep and they it might just come down to like asking that what multiple, why is it? It might just come down to oh, I want us to look good in photos. Oh, I have my mom made a comment about somebody else's photo and it always stuck with me. Like it might just come down to that, like whose voice is it in your head? And when you pull that card out, the entire house crumbles down. Right, I've had that.

Speaker 3:

Oh my God, I wish girls like really internalize this. You have no idea how many times we come across people who make perfect matches honestly at least on paper and from our conversations with them but because he's a little bit shorter than she wants sometimes he's even taller than her but shorter than her criteria she wouldn't even consider it and like we are burning inside because he's a great catch and they wouldn't even consider it yeah, that that is really unfortunate.

Speaker 1:

Like that, that vanity metrics, that we get stuck on height and all of those little things. And that's when you have to dig deep and like, why is that important for me? Like, what am I, what meaning am I assigning with this right? Like on the day of judgment, like, is the height going to be the reason why you get you into jannah? Like he's entering jannah right, he's taking you with you with, with with him, because he was the perfect hire and he got free admission to jannah, like you know, like really have to dig deep and where is this thought coming from? And that's where life coaching, that's where therapy, that's where, like working with, maybe even like having conversations with experienced, um, older women who've been married for 10-15 years and be like, will this, will this matter when, like 15 years, when I'm in your shoes? Uh, after being married for 15 years, is this something that I would still care about? Right? So I think there's a lot of like inner work that goes into looking for a spouse.

Speaker 3:

When we ask them in all honesty, like 99% of them say, uh, I don't feel attracted to a shorter guy, and then you you can't say anything to that like you're attracted to what you're attracted to, yeah that's it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and you know, like, what I was thinking was thinking about a lot of women do say like I'm open to marriage, but they are. Are they fully, fully emotionally available for the relationship? Right, I've been there myself and things I've seen as like saying things like that, oh, I'm not attracted to this. Without giving it a third chance, right, without giving it a third chance, without being open-minded about it, without, like, maybe even meeting this person in person and being like I want to just give it a chance and see, right, uh, like, even like shutting down conversations too soon. Being like, oh, he said it could be a beige flag, it could be a flag, but, oh, red flag, run away from this, block this person. Oh, he said this. Right, instead of being open and being like, hey, I'm curious, what do you mean by that? Can you help me understand where that thought's coming from?

Speaker 1:

And sometimes, like, when you're chatting I mean the time, the days we live in, the age we live in like there's a lot of like apps, there's a lot of like chatting back and forth, but just get on a phone as, like adults, you know you wouldn't do a business meeting or like on chat, right, like, sometimes even like emailing back and forth.

Speaker 1:

You'd say let's get on a phone, right, why not do that with something that is going to like, really like, decide like the next, maybe the next chapter of your life? Right, get on the phone, meet this person in person and really fully put your heart out there, put your right, put your heart on the line and be like this is a potential. Treat it like a potential right. Coach would always tell me this is not the last guy on the world. Just treat it like a potential, but fully, fully like. Really consider that without like shutting it down, without like, without your trauma, without your past experiences, without your self-protection, coming on and being like red flag, I'm out of it. Right, we're so quick to call any flag a red flag.

Speaker 3:

Now, right, really exploring to be like yeah, yeah, zaid likes to say that we live in a Netflix era.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just binge through every guy.

Speaker 1:

That's it, I always think there's an endless amount of that right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, subhanallah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

Seems like yeah, yeah, let's move to guys. What would you say and we hear it a lot what would you say to a guy who feels intimidated by a successful woman?

Speaker 2:

Well, I just want to add one thing before you answer that. Because guys, naturally they're prescribed with the responsibility to lead and so and they want to maintain that status and dignity as a leader or caretaker and they don't want that to be compromised, especially when they see a girl who's so successful out there in the world. So what advice would you give to men who, at the same time, want to still retain that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I spoke to other men to get more perspective about this, because who am I to speak on behalf of men? So I was like you guys, tell me, what did you have to do in order to become confident Whether this woman is making has like 56,000 followers, confident whether this woman is making has like 56 000 followers, whether this woman has like a successful business, whether this woman has been out on her own and doing things right? Uh, what did you have to do? Or how did you have to work on yourself to be like okay, I can have a conversation with this woman without feeling intimidated, without feeling threatened, right, uh, without feeling like this is not going to, this won't work out, right, without shutting it down before even giving it a chance? So one I think men also have to understand the point we talked about earlier.

Speaker 1:

When we think of successful women, let's not compartmentalize them and have all these automated stereotypes attached to them. She could be practicing, she could be humble Most of the time. She is right, she is down to them. Like she could be practicing, she could be humble Most of the time she is right, she is down to earth, she's really open to like, has emotional intelligence to be able to like have proper conversations, right. So let's not, men, don't reduce them to one trait Like, you lose the full picture. And then, when you're thinking about like, let's say, this woman is used to running things, uh, on her own, like business or travel and all of that, and she might be used to used to like being in control. So thinking about like okay, this woman has lived life like this. At the same time, she understands that marriage is different, right, and an emotionally intelligent woman understands about. Marriage is a right, and an emotionally intelligent woman understands marriage is a partnership where we work things together. Right. It's about like really understanding, making the other person feel seen and heard, and a good man understands all of that. So, to answer your question, what do men need to do? Number one someone really smart once said to me like respect is earned, not demanded. So making the woman feel field, seen and heard, right, like that's also like maybe she's had her father's uh, uh, other men in the family who've always been like my way or the highway, right, so maybe she's had men like that and unfortunately, in some cultures, men haven't really lived, lived up to the responsibility of what it means to be a man.

Speaker 1:

I was listening to this podcast the other day with Omar Adil Han, who would say if there's an animal that trips and falls in Egypt, I'm going to be questioned about it. These men really took responsibility seriously, right, I want to make sure like nobody's harmed under my rule, under my kingdom, not from a place of, like ego driven, but I'm going to be asked by Allah about this right. I'm going to be asked about this, so I have to make sure I take care of these people. I have to take care of this woman. So one like making it a safe space for a woman, but also respect being earned, not demanded.

Speaker 1:

But also like when you're having these conversations, right, like really understanding what kind of relationship are you looking to have? What kind of relationship is this woman looking to have? And there are families I've seen that are matriarchal and there are families that are patriarchal, like the families where the woman makes all the decisions, right, so maybe she grew up in that kind of family and she thinks that she'll be in charge, right, so really just understanding. Okay, what do you foresee a future family to be, a future family to look like? How do the husband and wife work together? So you might really have to dig deep and be like okay, understanding. Like where is this woman coming from, what are her expectations, right? Like where's this woman coming from, what are her expectations, right, and what are her expectations in terms of, like, division of labor, like traditional roles, or maybe there's something else that she wants she thinks is might work better for her future relationship?

Speaker 1:

Sheikh Yasser Bajaj said a really really amazing thing once. Like he's been doing like finding your Mr Right kind of workshops for like over 10-15 years now, right, and he's been in the marriage, he's been having conversations and he's been talking to people and to two people looking to get married for like a number of years. He said something beautiful. He said the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, had multiple wives. One of the his wives, one of his relationships, one of his marriages, was like the woman sent the proposal for him, where Khadija said to a friend can you ask about this birthday of Prophet, I'm interested in it, right, and he said no, I don't think I'm ready for marriage. And he sent a message back and she sent a message back. So this was a marriage where the woman asked kind marriage where the woman kind of took the lead. And then we have the marriage with Aisha that was arranged by the parent, right.

Speaker 1:

So we see so many different kinds of relationships in the seerah. We see women that are successful, like the word we use right Successful, wealthy, rich, right. Successful like what we put the word we use right, successful, wealthy, rich, right. We see uh relationships, or we see the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam having relationships with so many different kind of people. So there's so much we can learn from this isa. But we have kind of like, reduced islam to this is the traditional role. This is the only formula that works where the woman is younger, but the woman, this is the age gap that needs to be Like. We have come up with all these stories that have cultures taught us, but we need to kind of go back to the deen and be like what does Islam talk about this?

Speaker 1:

So, to answer your question, when, how do men not feel intimidated? Is one not seeing, not summarizing them to one trait, and really exploring, really talking to this person, to kind of be like what else is about this person? I want to find out, like, what are her values, how easy is it to talk to her Right, but also respect being earned, like you have to show up in a role where you are being the safe space and you are like being a safe space for her, even when you're just having a conversation. Are you like letting her finish her sentences? That's smart, right? Are you listening, are you? You like taking part in the conversation? Are you adding to it versus being like no, this is like, this is my, this is the way I do things. End of discussion, right.

Speaker 1:

So, uh, being uh, being like really disrespect being earned, and then having the conversation about, like, what kind of marriage are you looking for? So, if the man is looking for maybe traditional roles, what we call traditional roles right, so, and the woman's like, oh, I, I want to be earning, I want to be able to like, do this, this and this, right, so maybe there's a mismatch there, but really just understanding where two people are coming from, and having that honest conversation, that deep conversation about what do I need, what do you need, what would we need together?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm glad you brought the topic of conversations. Let's be practical and precise. What conversations should a couple have, especially if we're talking about a high achieving woman? What conversations should they have before marriage in terms of roles, responsibilities, leadership, decision making? Even because sometimes some successful women they feel a little bit edgy any kind of like mention of leadership they take it as control as they're being controlled.

Speaker 2:

Or compromise.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's right, and that's actually a question, great question that couples potentially couples can ask each other is how do you define male leadership? Right, how do you define male leadership? Because one, like one, like each of them, might have never thought about those answers but really thinking about okay, what am I looking for? What have I seen that doesn't work? Maybe it's not, I don't know what it's supposed to look like, but this is what I have seen and I know that's not a slump, right? So, so, really exploring what does male leadership Without your, without being triggered, without your ego coming on the line, you know, putting putting your ego offline, disconnecting the Wi-Fi signal on your ego and being like, hey, let's, can we explore what male leadership looks like? But you're right, because we have seen bad examples, right, we've been. We've seen how that leadership can be used as a controlling card, as a card to like my way or the highway, right? So, uh, you're right.

Speaker 1:

So sometimes it can be triggering and for women, if male leadership is triggering, you have to go back to the dean and like ask yourself what is the true definition of this? What does a mom even mean, right? What kind of responsibility? And same for men like you. You said, like what do men have to do in order to not feel intimidated? Is like self-awareness, what are your strengths, what are you bringing to the relationship? And and I do, I understand men can be reduced to that one number of how much do you make, right? 100, get it right right. So, like they themselves have to be like okay, I am more than how much I make. I am this person. I add this value to the relationship. I bring this, like they themselves have to know what value they're bringing to the relationships of self-awareness, emotional intelligence and also this is what the men have told me is working on their physical and their appearance. Right like being fit and it's not about fitting this, this numbers again, like putting this, this formula out there, but really being presentable, being being like working on yourself to look presentable and being fit. Everybody has to be, everyone has to be fit and but, as a man to be, to work on your confidence, self-awareness, even learning the theme, like learning about investments, learning about budgeting, learning about all these topics that you future you will need, right like being able to like learn all these things to build your confidence and also working on yourself physically as well. But to answer your question about, like, what conversation should you have?

Speaker 1:

Something that I highly, highly, highly recommend now is premarital counseling, because the thing is that if someone's never been married before, you don't know what questions to ask. You don't know what questions will be an issue, you don't know what questions. What are the top things that will break a marriage right? What are the top things that will break a marriage right? What are the top things that will cause conflict in a marriage, right? I mean, given the, we have never dated anyone, we have never been in a live-in, we have never had all these experiences right, so we don't know what to ask sometimes. So premarital counseling will bring up those topics now.

Speaker 1:

So now, instead of you being like, oh, I don't know how to ask about the money question, I don't know how to ask about the intimacy question, pre-marital counseling will bring it up. Right, they will say what I, what are your um, what are some assumptions about this you have, what are your? What have you seen in your parents that has worked? What have you seen in your parents that has not worked? How do you see money? You know, what are your spending habits? All these questions really come up in pre-marital counseling. That's one. So, go for pre-marital counseling uh, they most of them would have like some kind of like a course component where you watch videos and a workbook component to it, and then, like some of them might have like an add-on where you work with an imam or like a therapist, where you're both able to bring up like they ask questions, you both are able to have conversations and that. So pre-marital counseling is like really affordable now is really accessible. There's so many organizations that do it.

Speaker 1:

But then also the questions about, like, how do we? What does marriage look like for you? What kind of roles do we want? Do you assume that you want in your future relationship? What does male leadership look like? Money being a big one, right. How do you communicate?

Speaker 1:

So, other than it's not like, other than waiting for passively figuring these things out or feeling like you know, the biggest thing for women is I'm going to lose control, right, I'm going to have to give up control. I'm going to have to like be under this person. This is your time. This is your time to ask all the questions, right. Ask questions about, like, how do you see a relationship working out? Is it where the man just makes all the decisions? Or is it like a co-creation? Is it a partnership? Maybe we both have different strengths and we create an experience that either each one of us wouldn't have had independently, right? So really just asking those questions. This is your time to be smart. This is your time to be wise and proactive and asking those questions, to bringing up those topics and being like exploring those now.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I have an honest question now Are we, are we over-complicating marriage? Like, look, we have books, we have courses, we have counseling, we have podcasts, coaches, all of that. And look at the generation of our parents, our grandparents. They didn't have any of that. Sometimes they even got married without seeing each other. And at the same time, look at the divorce rates at their time and at our time. Is all just a hype, or what exactly?

Speaker 1:

so our parents got, sometimes got married without even looking at each other. Our parents didn't have proper conversations, the way we have list of 150 questions, 150 questions to ask before marriage, right? Right, they didn't do all of that, but look at the consequences of that. The divorce rate was low. Why? Because they didn't have options. There was so much stigma with divorce. I mean one. It was not even an option. What would the woman do? She didn't earn, she didn't have her parents to go back to. Was it her choice to stay in that relationship or was it out of? I have no options. This is the only option I have. Right? So, yes, the divorce rates were low, but why, right? Were they all successful marriages? Were they all happy marriages? I don't know. I don't know, right?

Speaker 1:

So, yes, you're right, we might be overcomplicating it sometimes, but at the same time, we are not the woman, those women. I can speak from the woman's perspective, right, I don't know about the men, but as a woman, I know we're not the same, especially if you're older, if you've seen the world. I mean, women got married at 18, 19, 20, 21,. Right Now, women get married in the 30s, right? So, completely a different personality, someone who's seen the world, someone who explored themselves, who's more self-aware, like when you're 19,. You're still figuring it out when you get married, oh, you know what let's. They're both learning, they're both growing together in some ways, right. But now when you're looking at a woman who is in the 30s, who's in the 40s, she has a set of values, she knows what she wants, right. So I don't know if it's fair to compare, like, their marriages with our marriages, right. And again, like, yes, it's not about finding the one person who fits all these cups.

Speaker 1:

Like I said, going back to that book, the case of finding a good enough man, it really talks about what did people look for in the past, what do they look for now, whereas the book Committed talks more about what is the purpose, purpose of marriage, which are absolutely both really important books that I was just like mind blown by those two books. The combination of, like, marrying a man who's just good enough, you know, like, how many criteria can you have, right? Like, uh, I had once, like sheikh muhammad al-sharif told my friend have top three. She made a list of 10, but he said top three things, that's it. You want three things that you want to look for in a spouse and that's it. Right Three things. And if this person has it, you want to just be able to consider him genuinely and see what you want to do, how to take that further.

Speaker 3:

Isn't that too much compromising?

Speaker 1:

That's a great question, maybe. But again, like, if you that's your top three values, then is that compromise Right? Or maybe that's being realistic to be like I'm not going to find someone with a list of like 150 questions, answering 150 questions exactly the way I want them to answer it Right, then I feel like they are more likely to be a potential, an amazing spouse. I want to consider this, obviously get your parents involved, get, like elders involved. Maybe you're not seeing something they will see, but really just to show, like, make your list, take them, to take them to the next level, top three things. But yes, compromise absolutely. But isn't that life? You know? Sometimes you want that perfect ice cream and you're like it has to have these sprinkles on it and it's not available. Then you do settle, right, you do settle with the next best option. Like I'm gluten intolerant, so my options are very limited. Am I compromising? Hell, yes, but do I have to?

Speaker 2:

Hell, yes, yeah, to add to what you're saying with regards to options. So eva and I dedicated I think in town, or we did a video on this about the illusion of options that at the end of the day, we overlooked the fact that we are still a minority here in the west right, like we comprise of, I think, in canada, about three percent of the population is muslims, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 3:

Closer to five. Closer to five.

Speaker 2:

Okay, closer to five. Still, that's still so low. And yet we think we have a sea of options that we can just explore through and we can just pick and choose when we don't Like. There has to be a certain degree of compromise and willingness to make the potential match work right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah and I know the word compromise comes with a lot of negative connotation, but really, if my top values are being met, the rest is just nice to have, right? So when you look at it like that, you're like this is I'm not compromising on these. These are deal breakers. These are the top three things that I absolutely have. Everything else is nice to have, and can we have conversations about those? Right? Like, can we be able to come to a conclusion? Are we able to come to some terms together to be like hey, I know you want this, but this is what I feel more comfortable with. Can we work something out? Right? Maybe they might say not in the first year, but I promise you in the second year we'll look at this right? Like, maybe the conversations you can have and you're able to trust this person to say, okay, you know what he's giving me my word, and we're able to create this partnership of trust and feeling seen and feeling heard and being able to, like, rely on this person, right? So I feel like, yes, we might be overcomplicating it.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that he talks about in that book finding a case of a good enough man is that pool is small. Like men can marry, like older and younger Women are generally looking for same age or older, generally, right. So for women, like, if you are looking for, if you're someone in your 40s, 30s, there's a huge pool of men that are already married. So that's gone. So if you are a man, if you are in your 30s, 40s, as a woman, one has to be Muslim, has to be in at least some sort of geographically close enough neighborhood area that you can travel to back and forth. You're not looking for someone on the other side of the world, right? So the pool is small, the pool is really small. And then add to that the number of Muslims in the West, right, the pool is smaller and smaller and smaller. It's not getting bigger as you get older. It's not automatically as soon as you hit this number. It's going to open this whole world of opportunity.

Speaker 1:

So that book really tells you okay, the pool is just getting smaller for you and as well as the way people are moving on. So you have to like understand what do you want in a relationship? You have to really think about, like, what does marriage mean to you? The other book committed what role is marriage going to play in your, in your life, because in some generations, in some cultures, it was just about this is how the society works. You get married, you don't have kids. And this is how the society works. You need women in the house, you need men in the field, right, this is just how society works. Now we want our spouse to be everything. So, really, those two books, the Case of Good Enough and also Committed the pool is not getting bigger. What do I really want and what does marriage mean to me? What do I want it to be in my life?

Speaker 3:

Wow, okay, you touched on this in the beginning of this beautiful interview. I just want to go back to it. Let's say I'm a very successful woman. I make, I make God knows how much. I have my own home. I have a great pool of friends, have a lot of hobbies. My family is great All of that. Is it worth it to get married? What would? What would marriage bring into my life, except for it's just going to bring more responsibility, more control, more burden. Is it worth it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, and especially that fear of losing everything. I have that stability, I have that control I have, and I have a good life. Now, right, and except that one part that Muslims are not able to participate outside of marriage and intimacy side not missing anything else Right, able to participate outside of marriage and intimacy side, not missing anything else right. Again, like you said, I have a travel buddy that I travel the world with, who we reschedule our calendars and we both take vacation at the same time. And maybe you're traveling, maybe you're having a great life, buying a home too, right, taking care of your parents.

Speaker 1:

So what's marriage going to add to it that I don't already have? I think you really have to ask. It's, you know, it's so funny you won't know that answer until you actually get married. I know, I know most single women don't want to hear this. They're like what do you mean? What do you mean? Because it's a world that you've not seen, right, it's a world that you've not experienced, you've not felt.

Speaker 1:

So, the way I look at it, instead of thinking of like the independence, the hyper-independence, as a threat, or like I'm going to lose my identity, like extra responsibilities, like you said, right, you have to think about like, yes, you might be good at so many things, but there's some things you're not good at. Right, you might be great at finding the best spots and turkey to eat at, but you might not be good at listening to the waves. You know, listening to the waves and just enjoying a beach, you know like, really just getting lost in the moment. As someone who's who's like a doer right I do I sometimes don't know how to be right. So, like, each of us has strengths and we have weaknesses. There are some things we have never experienced because that's just the way our environment or our responsibilities have. We have had to do, like the safety part, like the should I pick up food here and take I have something for dinner, or should I go out in the dark? You know like when you're solo traveling, there's so much right. Even when you're traveling with a friend, you still have a sense of like I have to be responsible for myself, kind of like the safety part, right so, but when you're in a relationship, when you're in a marriage, when you're in a partnership, you were able to rely on the other person for strengths that you don't have. Maybe you're great at problem solving. But you struggle with listening. Maybe you are, uh, maybe you are feeling like, okay, if I rely on this person, I'm gonna lose myself. But you're not seeing the beauty of what someone else can bring into your life. They can show you a whole new world because of their perspective, like you've never had. Like it's kind of like in the quran, like we have told their spouse is like a garment. No other relationships described like that right, a friend, a garment. No other relationships described like that Right, a friend, a brother, a parent is not described like that.

Speaker 1:

A spouse is someone so close to you like your clothing is Right. So imagine to be able to rely on them for things you don't want to do, things you're not good at, things that you're just able to split the responsibilities. You take care of this, I take care of this. Also, like be able to see a world from a different perspective. Right, it's so hard to like put things in these things into words, but you have to trust the fitra, right, trust the fitra. There's a reason why marriage is created. There's a reason why a spouse is called a garment. There's a reason why I mean, you know you feel safe in a garment, you feel comfortable in a garment, this garment that's so close to you. And getting people so close to you can be scary for women. Getting somebody to become so close to you because, know, that illusion of control, that hyper independence, right, um. But you know, trusting the fitra, trusting what Allah has created for us, um.

Speaker 1:

Somebody said, like, what you experience in marriage is kind of like a glimpse of what you experience in jannah, because you do have spouses in jannah too, right? So, yeah, like you know how we look up, look at the fruits of jannah in this world. Like there's the, there's, there's fruits that we know are also going to be jannah. Like, marriage is one of those things, right, marriage, having a spouse is one of those things that's also going to be in jannah. So, really, instead of thinking I lose myself, what am I good to gain? Asking yourself, how can this person add beauty, ease, goodness and health to my life, how can we complement each other? How can I be inspired by them? How can I be, rather than feeling like, how will I be diminished by them? So I feel like when you find a relationship like that inshallah, all the single women and men find a relationship like that you're able to taste a different part of beauties that are less created in the world, in this world beautiful I I absolutely agree with you.

Speaker 3:

a single woman will not know what it's like, or a single man will not know what it's like to be married. It's like somebody who has never had chocolate before. And they look at what's the big deal? This like a brown block, so what like? But once they try it, they become hooked.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

Speaker 1:

That's right. And you know what marriage does come with challenges. You have to be like this whole emotional side of things. You know it brings up a lot of emotions. It can bring a lot of like, triggering a lot of like past experiences. Maybe it's not empty of challenges. It's never going to be Jannah on this earth, right? Everything is hard. Being single is hard, being married is hard.

Speaker 1:

And the question just becomes why do you want this hard thing, right? Why are you pursuing this? Is it because Allah has promised something in there? Allah told us there's something beautiful in there. You know, like, there's a good intention for it. Maybe you want to stay single and that's not sinful, according to a lot of scholars, right. But there has to be an intention for that too, right? And I have a friend who wants to be single to take care of her parents because she, in her mind, when she gets married, she won't be able to take care of her parents, right? That's the story she's made up and that's the story she's telling herself. And maybe that's true, maybe, yeah. But um, it really goes back to like what is your intention? Why are you doing this? To please allah?

Speaker 3:

then it's all him, subhanallah. I feel so warm and fuzzy right now. Honestly, we always try to give hope to people, our clients, just people in general. Marriage is really beautiful. Like you said, it comes with challenges, but it's better to go through life, to go through life experiencing these challenges in marriage, than not to have that at all.

Speaker 1:

And there's no need to be afraid of challenges. You know what Life is going to be challenging. Right, like the diamond that gets sharper and brighter with every rub. Right, you know? And Moulana Rumi said, the wound is where the light enters. I'm going to stop at that mic drop.

Speaker 2:

It is a good mic drop moment. So I saw something on your Instagram stories that really stood out to me, which was this idea of settling, and there was a sister that asked you a question that she had been looking for 10 plus years and she was ready to give up and do I settle or do I hold on? And you said something really, really good, which was that when you and your husband that you didn't settle on your non-negotiables and that there were only two or three things, and settling is knowing your priorities and finding someone who's imperfectly perfect for you. So, if you don't mind sharing, and if you did, what were your two or three non-negotiables?

Speaker 1:

It's been a while since I looked at that list, but I'm going to try and remember. I don't remember the exact wording, but that's what I mean. I do remember the top two values that I had, I think, like I mentioned in the beginning values that I had. Um, I think, like I mentioned the big like, being able, someone who is open to listening, open to, like, a different viewpoint, right, um, it's funny, I actually remember what I said. Usually I forget, so, um, but that was, I think that openness was really big on that on my list, because that openness shows humility in a person and I have to demonstrate the same thing.

Speaker 1:

I can't just expect it from the other person and be like, I'm right, I know all the answers, right, like, and there are times when I have to ask myself is this my ego? Is this because I think this is the right thing to do? Is this my ego? Is this my ego? Okay, no, it's not my ego. I think this is the right thing to do. So, okay, I'm going to insist and we have to do it this way, right?

Speaker 1:

So, really really putting your ego aside and sometimes, like, you have to challenge yourself to do this and, like, be open to the other person's perspective. Hey, help me understand. You know like, working for you know, like when two people are sitting across each other, one person sees a nine and the other person sees a six, but when you come on the other side, you're both looking at it the same way and you both see you six. So instead of sitting across each other in a marriage, bringing the other person over, but you're going over and saying, hey, show me your perspective. I want to, I want to understand this, right?

Speaker 1:

So someone who is like open well, it's such a vague thing, but when you see it, you know it um, practicing, and to me that meant has the basics down, not the hajj, you know, I was like I just and some things that are are hidden. The only Allah knows the state of the heart, what they do in secret. Right, I want to make sure the basics are down, because I want to make sure this is something that we continue for future generations, inshallah. Right, the basics, we don't compromise on that. The openness, and, yeah, I'll leave it at that. There were a couple more private things, but yeah, so I'll leave it at that.

Speaker 3:

Okay, okay, Hafsa, I can listen to you for hours. Honestly, Like I feel like you know all the right things to say.

Speaker 1:

No wonder you're a coach no wonder I'm happy to hear that, honestly, I mean, there are all the right things to say. No wonder you're a coach. Honestly, I made the like. This benefits you know all the people that are looking to get married. They find they find all the right answers they're looking for because, really, self-awareness as a man and a woman this is what I've heard from the men as well self-awareness, knowing yourself, learning about the other gender, you know, know, like we don't I mean especially we live in such segregated environments or we're not supposed to look at the woman, we can't talk to her. How are you going to know what the woman wants, right? What is she really after, especially now that maybe your mom is very different than the spouse you're looking at? So self-awareness, I would really say, and being able to understand the other person.

Speaker 3:

I would really say, and being able to understand the other person, I was just going to ask you one last advice you would give to anyone who's looking, maybe on the brink of giving up, or maybe they're not giving up, but they're just tired and burnt out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the other thing. It's an exhausting journey. When you put yourself out there and it doesn't work out, you're back at it again, right? I actually messaged Dr Janan Yusuf Astaza, janan Yusuf, and I told her I don't even have the energy to make dua. I'm just so done. I don't even know how to make dua with passion anymore because I'm just so exhausted. What do I do?

Speaker 1:

And she, dr Janan Yusuf. If you're not familiar with her work, she is the author of the Names of a Love book, and I was attending her course with the Swahili Web Academy. She was doing like a course, going through one name a week, and her book is beautiful. If you have never picked it up, I have it somewhere here. So I asked her. I said you know what? I'm just exhausted. It's so draining to put yourself out there, your heart on the line, every single time. Oh wait, this didn't work out either. And I asked her what do I do? I don't even see a hope to make dua. Like, how do I make dua now? Right? She said go to Allah and complain about all those things. Go to Him with your pain. Go to Him with your struggle to make dua. Go to Him with all of that you're feeling Like he is the one who responds, he is the one who is your wali, your trustee, he is the one who provides, he is the one who opens, he's the one who guides. So, yes, you're struggling, but that doesn't mean you struggle for yourself. You still rely on Allah SWT and you go back to Him with that struggle and she said complain all you want to Him. Tell Him how hard this has been, tell Him how you're struggling, tell Him, you know, like I think that relationship with Allah SWT, with Allah, like especially understanding His names, really helped me in my business too, and I came up with this mini-course that talks about nine or ten names of Allah that help you in your business, as a business owner.

Speaker 1:

Because the world teaches us, you don't have anyone to rely on, like that hyper-independence we were talking about, and I was listening to a podcast with Dalia Mugahid. Ustazah Yasmin Mugahid's sister. Dalia Mugahid has a podcast. She was talking about how the Musa alayhi salam staff is something he literally leans on, physically leans on, and Allah is telling him to put it down. It becomes a snake, it becomes a sign of Allah. So the things we rely on, it's one.

Speaker 1:

Relying on something someone is not weakness. Relying on Allah SWT is the ultimate source of strength, but also your spouse relying on someone is that thing you're relying on is also a sign of Allah, right? It's the thing that Allah sent you your way. So, going back to the names of Allah, I really feel like that changed my a lot in me. What I thought about business, about like I have to do this on my own, that self-reliance I don't have to do this on my own. I have Al-Fatah with me, I have Ar-Rasah with me. I can always call on to these attributes of allah swan and make the battle, have to help me, to guide me, to open doors for me, open doors that I didn't even know existed, wow I want to read that book yeah, it's absolutely beautiful if you can even like attend, like watch her recordings, watch her classes.

Speaker 1:

It's just the way she shares her experiences. It's beyond the book, but absolutely beautiful. Dr janan Janan Yousaf absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 3:

Okay, we'll look into it, inshallah.

Speaker 2:

So, before we wrap up, how can any potential client reach out to you if they want to seek your services, seek your assistance? How can they find you?

Speaker 1:

Best way would be Instagram. My Instagram is hafsatahircoaching. That would be the best way to reach me. There should be a link to even email me if it's a longer request and the DM character limit is running out, but Instagram would be the best way to find me description of this episode.

Speaker 3:

We're truly, truly grateful to you for this beautiful advice. Sometimes all it takes is just for a person to listen to just one word that could change their life. So I hope inshallah people find this in this episode. May allah reward you, grant you lots of success and bless you with your husband thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

we really appreciate you guys having me. Like I said I have. It's not an easy. I want to make sure the listeners understand that, but we have tools, we have people, we have a lot more available now than I had when I was doing this. So reach out. It's not a shame to ask for help, it's not a weakness, and I wish all your listeners all the best. Inshallah, inshallah.

Speaker 3:

Inshallah, jazakallah, waayakum, and to our beautiful listeners inshallah, we'll see you in the next episode. Assalamu alaikum.