Diary of a Matchmaker

The One Thing You Need Before Marriage Fights

• Halal Match • Episode 70

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Think conflict management is only for married couples? Wrong. If you’re single and hoping for a healthy marriage, now is the time to learn it. In this episode, psychotherapist Kamela Salimi shares why conflict is the top issue she sees in couples therapy and how singles can prepare before saying “I do.” We unpack Dr. John Gottman’s “Four Horsemen” and their antidotes, explore how Islam offers built-in tools for emotional regulation long before therapy named them, and reveal why "freedom from the self" is key to lasting love. So say bismillah and hit Download.


Connect with Kamela:

https://www.kamelasalimi.com/

https://muslimwomenswellness.com/


If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


Speaker 1:

Assalamu alaikum, I'm Hiba.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Zaid.

Speaker 1:

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

Speaker 2:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

Speaker 1:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

Speaker 2:

So let's dive in. Bismillah, assalamu alaikum everyone, welcome to another episode. I'm Zaid and on the other mic is my wife and co-host, hiba.

Speaker 1:

As-salamu alaykum.

Speaker 2:

So today we're honored to have a special guest, sister Camilla Salimi. She has a unique background as both a registered psychotherapist and certified trauma therapist, with a specialization in relational trauma. To further her training, she also obtained a diploma in Islamic psychology. She fuses Western psychology with Islamic psychology. Her experience ranges from individuals to couples to families. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 3:

No problem, glad to be here.

Speaker 2:

So in your line of work, you deal with a lot of conflict management and communication issues, correct? Yes, so of course, in our line of work, we focus primarily on getting people ready for marriage, whether it's assessing compatibility, finding a compatible spouse and naturally, the things that people start thinking about are red flags or what questions should I ask. But conflicts are usually one of the last things that come to mind. And even when we do think about conflicts, it's always in the context of well, you guys will just figure it out, don't worry about it. So how often do you see marriages falling apart because of poor conflict management?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's a bit of a loaded question and when I was reflecting on kind of how to answer this, it's like a whole can of worms that I could open. But to briefly answer it, I would say in therapy sessions the most common issue that I deal with in couples is conflict management. So it's there, it's common, even if it's not talked about. And are you guys familiar with something called the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Yeah, the Gottman. Yes, yeah, so you'll notice I'll quote Gottman a lot because he's in the US. He's known as the father of marriage therapy.

Speaker 3:

So one of them is Stonewalling right Mashallah you guys don't need me here.

Speaker 3:

Yes, stonewalling is one of them. He has this cool thing called Love Lab where he brings in couples and he watches how they interact and from there he kind of can guess the outcome of the relationship. Now, obviously, relationships are not that black and white, but he's pretty confident, based on his studies that the way couples fight, he says he can guess with 80% certainty if a relationship ends or not, and so his research shows that there's four things that lead to conflict. When it's when conflict is not being managed, that it can lead to four things. So stonewalling is one of them, defensiveness is one, and that's often coupled with criticism. So often we're criticized and then the person that responds is defensive. So defensive, criticism, contempt, and then, yes, stonewalling state, the one that you mentioned and that over time basically kills connection and so relationships or marriages might end because two people decide to go their separate ways or they might still be together and there's actually there's no connection, right?

Speaker 1:

um, yeah, okay, so two follow-up questions first, if you can elaborate about the difference between conflict resolution and conflict management, and the second one is if you can elaborate on each one of these, these four factors the four like like the contempt, criticism and defensiveness. Yeah, like how do they manifest?

Speaker 3:

Yes, yeah, they manifest when we have issues and we talk about it and we're not resolving anything. Resolving doesn't have to mean we have a perfect solution where both people are happy. In fact, I think gotman is one of the people that says there's differences in marriage, um, and lots of differences, and we might never get to a point of resolution. It's just learning how to live with the differences. So if, um, let me just give the example of um this kind of happens, uh with with men as, uh, you know, if they come home from work, they kind of put their socks on the floor and the wife is like you know, please remove your socks, please clean the counter, and it happens. I know someone.

Speaker 1:

I know someone who does that.

Speaker 3:

I'm not gonna say who. So, day after day, if you're like, please pick up your socks, please pick up your socks, and if it's not being resolved, one. What Gottman says is that eventually it leads to the four horsemen. And when the four horsemen is there, that's when it's basically signifying the day of judgment or the end of the relationship or the end of connection, right? So it's pretty scary and my intention is not to overwhelm people, but just to be good about being vigilant. And when I do couples counseling, I always we go through the four horsemen and I ask you know, what are you seeing and what are each of you doing to contribute to the four horsemen? Right, because it's easy to be like, oh my God, like he's very critical of me. Okay, what role are you playing in that dynamic? Yeah, so that's a little bit about the four horsemen. And then there's ways of getting around the horsemen. I can answer that now if you want more details, or but you can answer the two question you asked about resolution and management.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, do that please Sure.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, so to kind of build some hopes that it's not kind of end of the world, thinking he has the those four horsemen, but then he has something called the antidote to the four horsemen, right. So he says if you are, contempt is one of them. So contempt is more. I would say of the four horsemen, that's the most dangerous one and what it looks like is disrespect. It looks like this feeling of superiority and it, what it communicates is like disgust when you're like really looking down on the person, and contempt. We don't start with contempt towards another. It builds up, like I said, over time. So the antidote to contempt is you build a culture of appreciation, so you start to focus on the positive qualities of your partner and you pay attention to those and you name it as well. So that's the antidote is building a culture of appreciation. And contempt is not something you say, it's also in your body language. So one of the most common examples is you know when they're speaking, you're kind of rolling your eyes, you're kind of checking out when they're trying to be vulnerable, things like that. Yeah, so that's the contempt For criticism. The opposite of it is soft startup. So Gottman in his lab. He looks at how a conflict begins and he can guess, based on how it begins to, how it's going to end. Right, so just a gentle startup. And that's where you hear the very common like use I language, you know, don't say you never pick up your socks, it's you know, I feel like I don't matter. This is a very generic example. Obviously, when conflict is happening it's much more complicated generic example. Obviously, when conflict is happening, it's much more complicated, um, but you try to make it about you, um and your feeling, as opposed to criticizing the person and generalizing about their character and and all that stuff. Yeah, um, so that was contempt.

Speaker 3:

We went through stonewalling, oh, stonewalling we didn't go through. That's the other one Stonewalling. It's pretty self-explanatory what it is. What practically it would look like is one person just kind of withdraws, and it can happen for hours. Sometimes it can happen for days. I've worked with couples where it can happen for weeks, where one person is just really, really upset and so they just they withdraw, they shut down, they disconnect.

Speaker 3:

Often what happens when we're stonewalling is the conflict feels so much like we're just feeling overwhelmed and so the only way we can cope in that moment is to step away. There's nothing wrong with that. I think stonewalling gets like a bad reputation when we choose to step away and disconnect. And when I do couples counseling, we always talk about how can we safely disconnect and disengage where the other person knows I'm not going anywhere. I still love you, but I need my space.

Speaker 3:

So the opposite of stonewalling is you have to learn how to self-regulate so that when you're in the middle of conflict and you're really, really uncomfortable and all you want to do is run away and hide um, you, what, what? What we call is you have to self-soothe. So, in the same way that you comfort and calm down a baby, you have to learn how to self-soothe where you're like I'm okay, you know we're good, um, and know your limit, like you're going to reach a point where you're going to that coping method is going to kick in and you're going to run, but try to stay present. Maybe for the conflict that's not as overwhelming. Yeah, so that's a little bit about that. What would you imagine the opposite of defensiveness is?

Speaker 2:

That's a good question.

Speaker 1:

That's a good one. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so it's taking responsibility, oh okay, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, I think it's still too early for us.

Speaker 3:

it's not easy to do, but trying to hear what the other person has to say to be like where there might be some truth in the thing that's impacting them. So it's not easy to do in that moment. That's why a lot of, I think, couples work is learning to sit in that discomfort and trying to stay in the fact that we're a team, as opposed to it's you versus me. And that's what can happen when we have conflict that's ongoing, that's not resolved, it becomes me versus you and as opposed to we're here in this together, we're struggling and we don't know how to resolve it, which that creates more of a culture of empathy and giving each other benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so what I found is I haven't found, but what research has found is that criticism and defensiveness kind of go hand in hand. So usually you'll have one partner that's a bit more critical. Over time the other person becomes very defensive and then, when that's not resolved, it can lead to more stonewalling and then eventually, contempt, which is, once contempt is there, then that's when yeah, it's serious, like we need to step in and do some surgery. It's no longer, you know, let's just be patient with each other and talk it out.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So, speaking of just before you ask your questions, because I have a feeling I know what you're going to ask, but yesterday I was having coffee with a friend and we were talking about, like differences between men and women and criticism in particular. So I was telling her that, like prior to getting married or in the first stages of marriage, like I didn't know that men and women handle criticism differently, like I would criticize a lot of things, thinking that, like this is how we improve, this is how we grow, and I didn't know that men take criticism sometimes as undermining. So is there a truth to that or is this just an individual experience?

Speaker 3:

So I kind of stay away from being like this is a men thing, this is a women thing and this is how men receive. I found when I've done couples counseling that every couple is unique. In EFT, which is a motion-focused therapy model, my job becomes whichever couple I'm seeing that I'm mapping out their unique dynamic a couple, I'm seeing that I'm mapping out their unique dynamic. So there might be a men-women thing. I don't have knowledge of that. For me, what it looks like is for each people to focus on their own relationship, and the phrase we use in sessions is how are things received? How do things land? When I said what I said, what was my intent, what did I mean when I say that and how did it land? And so you can say something that from your background, from your life story, from your family of origin, it might be really kind and really helpful. And then the other person, the way it lands for them, it's like that was really mean, what you just said, right, and that can happen either way, from men to women, women to men.

Speaker 3:

So a lot of, especially in the first few years of the relationship, it's learning about each other, learning about each other's history, learning about each other's communication styles, right? So I'll give an example is I come from a family where we're non-confrontational, we don't raise our voices, and and so for me, I know that when someone speaks to me in a raised voice or like a certain kind of tone, I have a reaction, right, even if the other person is very well-meaning. It's just how. It's how I react. So it's about a lot of it comes down to self-awareness self-awareness and then building awareness of your partner, and then in time, inshallah, years from now, you could be like, yep, you could look back and be like I could see why that didn't land very well, right? And that's tied directly to communication strengthening and building communication skills, which is linked to conflict management, right, the two go hand in hand, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, to bring it back to singlehood, I wanted to actually go back to the four horsemen and ask you how do these things? Or is there a way for people to be self-aware and look out for these things prior to marriage, so that people can get mentally ready for marriage, in a sense?

Speaker 3:

Yes, you can do your homework. You can take time getting to know the person. I guess there's two ways of answering this. Part of it is doing your homework, where you get to know the person. You ask questions. Part of your questions can be like how do you handle conflict? And sometimes people know how to give the right answer. It could be also when conflict comes up in the getting to know phase.

Speaker 3:

So the earlier question was saying that we don't really ask about conflict management. Whether we ask about it or not, it shows up when we're getting to know. So, as bumps come up, how does the other person handle it? How is their emotional reactivity? What is their dynamic with their family like? And I know not everyone's family represents kind of how they do things, but what are their boundaries like, things like that. So you kind of do your homework in that aspect and to do that, by the way, requires you doing your own work, because you need to have the awareness to pick up on those things. So I always say a lot of preparing for marriage and preparing for having children is you do the work on yourself, you build that self-awareness and then eventually I think in any situation when you're getting to know someone. At the end of the day, it's a leap of faith that you take when you decide okay, this is the person that I'm going to kind of share my life with. We see how it goes. You pray istikhara, you make dua, you hope for the best, and then marriage comes after.

Speaker 3:

And to answer your question, I think sometimes, when it comes to conflict, our approach becomes okay, how do we avoid conflict? Like, how can we have our list checked so that we don't have to get to that place? Right? And I would say that that's more of a problematic question because it's, I think, I have more of an issue with the problem because it looks at conflict more from a place of like fear as opposed to it's a normal thing. It's going to happen, no matter how much you love each other.

Speaker 3:

Love is not enough to avoid conflict. Knowing that it's going to happen, knowing that there's days we're going to feel really connected and other days we might not like each other that much, how do we move forward? Right? So then it becomes about. We can talk more about it later on. I'm kind of going to a different topic, which is instead of how do we create the system where we have our what, the i's dotted and the t's crossed so we don't get to that place. How do we, how do we stay vigilant and have a really good repair process so that when we do have fights, when we feel disconnected, we know what to do, do as a team to kind of move through that?

Speaker 2:

That's a good point you brought up, because you know some couples brag about never fighting and we just have the perfect marriage and everything is just hunky-dory and that's sometimes seen as the idea. But no conflict, I'm assuming, is a bad thing. Right, it could be a red flag in disguise, correct?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there might be some miraculous couple where they don't have fights, I'm assuming, is a bad thing, right, it could be a red flag in disguise, correct? Yeah, there might be some miraculous couple where they don't have fights. So I don't want to just be like no conflict is everywhere. Realistically, from having been married and having working with clients, yes, conflict exists. But again, I think it's the issue with that thing of like, oh, we never have conflict is how you're viewing conflict, is you're seeing conflict as a bad thing, and maybe there's an assumption that if we have conflict, that it erodes the connection. But in fact, like there's, when you have conflict, it means you care for the relationship, you care for one another, and that process of going through it together, feeling disconnected, repairing can actually increase connection. So a lack of conflict is not necessarily a great thing for the connection, right. And I think that's where people would be like yeah, yeah, we were good, we don't have conflict. That might not be a bad thing. That might not be a good thing even if you don't have conflict.

Speaker 1:

Because things might be building up in the background right.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yeah. So in the cases where you need to have conflict but you're avoiding conflict, yeah, that's the case. So I've dealt with couples where it's like and even in my own life, like, depending on the day that I'm going through, where I just don't have the capacity or the energy or the other person might not to be like let's have a conversation about this, let's talk about this, let's talk about this. I'm just going to be like I'm fine, I'm good, right, but if I do that long term, that's where we move towards the four horsemen.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Okay. Now, two people can have completely different conflict styles. One could be like you mentioned before they need space, they need some time. And the other one could be like no, we need to figure this out immediately and not let it like not even go to sleep without resolving this conflict. So when you have two people with different styles like this, how do you handle this?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, one thing I always have to remind couples is difference is not a bad thing. So sometimes couples will come in and be like I don't, like we're, I'm really scared we're so different, like are things going to end between us? And they'll list a list of things that where they're different. So I just want to kind of reframe to challenge the framing of the question. Difference is not a bad thing, it's just again, it's going back to what we talked about earlier what is your unique couple map as a couple, and how do we address that? So in EFT, which is a common model for couples, what we would do is if you two were to come in and see me, I would say, okay, let's name a conflict that you recently had. How did it start? How did each of you react? What happened in the end? Were you able to resolve? Did you talk about it the next day? What was going on? And so with the emotion focused therapy model, they actually have kind of templates of common dynamics that they found with couples. So one of the most common ones that I see like 80% of the time and that I even kind of personally experienced in my own marriage, is you have the pursuer withdraw. And so during conflict, you have one person that's pursuing, that's like no, no, no, like we have to resolve this right now, we can't go to bed angry, let's talk about it, and they're just, they're restless, and they're not okay. And then the other person is the withdrawer. And then they kind of check out. And I would say again, like some people ask oh, do men fit more in one? Do women fit more in the other? I've seen a bit more where men are withdrawing. Women tend to be pursuers. But even in my own marriage I can be the withdrawer a little bit sometimes too. So I don't want to generalize for, let's say, years of let's solve this and they just get tired. Then you have the burnt out pursuer. Yeah, you have the burnt out pursuer who's like yep, I don't care, right. So then it might lead the other person to be like, well, wait, let's talk. What just happened, right? So, yeah. So what happens is you want to figure out your unique map. It's not always as simple as you fit in this box, I fit in this box. But how do we then, as a couple, address these differences?

Speaker 3:

And if you fit in the pursuer-withdrawer category, there's a really cool activity called timeout where, let's say, you get to, you're trying to figure something out, you're not, it's not being resolved. You're both getting really frustrated. The person who's the withdrawer is like I need some space. Then the pursuer has to respect that and so we call timeout. Timeout can be one hour, it can be half a day, sometimes it can be 24 hours. The timeout happens with the promise that the person who's withdrawing comes back, and then we have a discussion, because what happens with the withdrawer is they kind of leave and then we never actually talk about what happened, and that's where the pursuer is now. It's not fair for the pursuer because they're like you know, when are we going to talk about what happened? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Does that answer the question? Yeah, yeah, I like this technique because, like, instead of thinking the withdrawer is just gone indefinitely and like the other person is feeling anxious Okay, what's going to happen? Are we going to talk about it? Like this sets like an expectation. I like that.

Speaker 3:

And one thing I'll add is that sometimes when we look at relationships or when we're following social media, we can get into the pattern of oh, I have like an avoidant husband, or I married a narcissist.

Speaker 1:

And sometimes that would start labeling each other. Yes, so.

Speaker 3:

I don't want to dismiss that that that does happen. Often. From my experience, what I've seen is you have two people that are trying to make this relationship work that aren't always doing it the right way. That's also bringing in their own family history of trauma. So not trauma, sorry, their own history, family dynamics, things like that. So we're all coping in different ways when we're activated and so, and sometimes those ways that we're coping coping in different ways when we're activated and so, and sometimes those ways that we're coping is not productive to the relationship. So it's just about okay. What are my coping strategies? How is it productive to the relationship? Does it feed connection or disconnection? And how do we each need to hold each other so that we're coping in a better way that promotes connection, as opposed to? I'm super activated. I'm going to do what I need to do to feel relief, whether it's I have to pursue you till we resolve this, or I'm going to check out.

Speaker 1:

Okay. Well, a single Muslim listening to this might feel marriage is a lot of work.

Speaker 3:

Like is it really worth?

Speaker 1:

it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, is that your question for me?

Speaker 1:

I don't know if that's a question or just an observation.

Speaker 2:

I think what she's trying to ask is how do we relieve the single guy or girl and uh, and just put them at ease and and give them tools to get them ready?

Speaker 3:

well, like it always comes back to having faith in Allah, making lots of dua. Everything that happens is good for us. So I'm not meaning to scare people away. We also shouldn't take marriage lightly. It's not a joke. In Islam, it's considered an act of worship. So what I would say is it takes effort, it takes intentionality, and so that's why you have to do your homework and you have to take your time.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes, you know, when we watch, like, Bollywood movies, right, we kind of expect that it's going to be butterflies, and it's like we're focusing more on the chemistry side of things, and so we have to realize that we're two human beings trying to come together and build a life. Eventually inshallah, if Allah plans raising kids, all of those things. So I don't think it's a bad thing to be scared a little bit If that's going to help us become more intentional. But also, yeah, like and I'm sure you two can name a few things that you know marriage is a blessing. That, like, even with my husband, for example, like the fact that we pray together, Like that to me is incredible. You know, the fact that I have someone now that I can go to and talk about my feelings, Right. So I guess, because we're focusing on conflict management, we're not focusing on you know the amazing parts of it. This is also just as important, though.

Speaker 2:

And to add to that, you know we sometimes forget that the Prophet had marital disputes, right Like even his marriage wasn't perfect in that regard, because he had wives that had different personalities. So you know, given your background in Islamic psychology, what does conflict resolution look like in Islamic context?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so that's a. It's a very big question Because I think to answer, how does Islam look at conflict resolution? We have to look at Islam as a lifestyle right, and so what is the difference between Islamic psychology? What you know, how does Western psychology view things? And so I'm going to try to kind of keep my thoughts clear. One of the main differences, without going too much into philosophy and, yeah, because I know we're focusing on conflict management one of the biggest differences between Islamic psychology and Western psychology is that Western psychology looks at freedom of the self. This is what I learned when I studied Islamic psychology. Islamic psychology looks at freedom, of freedom from the self.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm gonna give us give you a sec for that to settle, yeah, yeah yeah, there's a difference between the two, right? Yeah, absolutely yeah, interesting yeah, how do you think that difference would impact marriage or how we approach marriage, like if you were to take a guess. Zaid, can I take a guess?

Speaker 2:

I have an idea Go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Western psychology is more like self-centered how to like not get the upper hand, but how like it's all about you. But Islamic psychology is how to free yourself from your ego, from your desires, from everything that's negative. Is that close?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, that's part of it, so you're in the right direction. Okay, zaid, what do you think?

Speaker 2:

I was thinking the same thing. Like one sounds more narcissistic and the other one sounds more selfless.

Speaker 3:

Yes, yeah, and I think it's not meant to put down Western psychology, or if anyone listens to this, they're like, well, I'm not seeing a therapist, you know, because they're putting these kinds of values. No, no, there's nothing wrong with looking out for yourself and taking care of yourself and self-preservation. I think it kind of and I'm sure you see it on social media and in the culture that we're moving towards, where it's freedom of the self, looks at me, my boundaries, qualities about myself that I need to work on, that I need to improve on. And so, islamically, our life should be this constant process of working on our heart, strengthening those weaknesses, and a marriage is a beautiful tool for that, because you can help each other with that. There's a positive twist there, um, yeah, so I think part one part of marriage is it requires a lot of selflessness. Um, sometimes it requires being patient with the other person, um, even if you feel like, yep, I've been wronged, you know. Obviously I want to make it clear that in cases of abuse and stuff like that, uh, that's a whole different discussion.

Speaker 3:

But when you have two people that are trying, they're not always figuring it out. Sometimes they're at a standstill. There's disconnection. Part of the patience. There's values within Islam that can help us get through that, which is forgiveness, compassion, patience towards one another, compassion, patience towards one another. And the beautiful thing is, in Islamic psychology, it's not just me and you working together, it's me and you, anchored in this faith called Islam and this Lord that we both believe in. Hopefully, we both pray to Sahara, you know, before making that decision to be with each other. So we move from me versus you to us to now us and Allah, and we are accountable to him and we have to answer to him.

Speaker 3:

So how do I do? Right by my spouse? Yeah, so that's one other thing. Making lots of dua, I think we have access to that. One thing that's really interesting, that never came up in my training in Western psychology, is shaitan, right. So one of the things we know shaitan loves is when he creates disconnection between spouses. Yeah, right, so we seek protection from shaitan, like we should be doing that daily. I don't know even more than daily, if you want, daily, I don't know, even more than daily, if you want. But there's that peace and that I wanted to bring some examples to just humanize the Prophet peace be upon him and then also Aisha Radila and, I think, zaid. You mentioned an example where you said in the question that you asked, you said that the Sahabas, I think, showed emotions. I don't know if I remember that correctly.

Speaker 3:

I was talking about how the wives had different personalities, oh okay okay, yeah so I don't know too much about the wives and their personalities, but, um, I'll focus on aisha and there's one, that story that I heard that always sticks with me, um, so, and I don't know if you guys have heard of it, so, um, the story is that it was her time, um, with uh problem peace be upon him. And I think one of the other wives sent over some food and so she kind of, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3:

No but do tell it, please. Yeah, so I think she got annoyed because it was her time with him, and so even just another wife bringing over food annoyed her and she threw the plate over and the plate broke Right.

Speaker 1:

Like, imagine that and the prophet had guests, so she did this in front of guests as well. I didn't know that part. Yeah, and, and she was also she was also known to be a bad cook, so she took it as like a personal attack. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 3:

There's many layers that we can, but look at that Like she. Yeah, there's many layers that we can, but look at that like she. It's aisha radhi olan, like the, the woman that recorded so many hadiths that we now use. She threw a plate. It broke. She was jealous that the, the, the term we would use. The clinical term is she was dysregulated, right, um. So she's a human being with emotions. And she wasn't saying, oh, I feel upset right now, right, like where sometimes we expect each other to do that in the heat of the moment, that you should still be able to talk to me properly, and it's no. Her emotions took over, um. So that's one example I wanted to use.

Speaker 3:

Another one is not really related to marriage, but, uh, the prophet peace be upon him when his son died, uh is when his son, ibrahim, as died, um, started to cry, and so the Sahabas were like. One of the Sahabas said oh, prophet, even you cry. And I wrote down what he said. He said the eyes shed tears and the heart feels sorrow, but we do not say except that which pleases Allah. Indeed, we are saddened by your departure, o Ibrahim. So I use that as an example, even in individual sessions, to say that, like he literally says, the eyes shed tears and the heart feels sorrow, so it's like the eyes are doing their own thing, right? That's in somatic therapy, which is we look at the body and how the body responds and reacts. Like this is emotions and it's okay. Like this is emotions and it's okay. And there's tears and it's not a sign of, you know, ungratefulness, but that these things happen and we have reactions.

Speaker 3:

And then the last example that always comes to mind that will help answer the question that you had asked Zaid, was when Aisha Radiyohan asked the Prophet peace be upon him, you know about his love for her and he said it's like a strong binding knot. I don't know if you've heard of that. That's a common one, I guess. Yeah, um, and then every once in a while, she would ask him how is the knot? And he would say as strong as the first day you I don't know if it's as the first day you asked or the first day they were together. That part I'm not sure about, um. So this is an example of two people that are attuned, um, that there's clearly between them closeness, affection, respect, um, attachment, um, and, and this is the example we're supposed to um, cause he is the best example that we're supposed to work towards. Um, that we're supposed to um and it's an inside kind of thing. I was. I was gonna say inside joke. It's not a joke, but it's this inside thing that they have that connects them together.

Speaker 2:

If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't know where to seek help, let us help you. We can be your personal matchmakers. Visit us at halalmatchca and book a free call with us. The thing that stands out to me in the example of um the second example you gave, uh when the prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam son passed away is that, even in the heat of the moment, he was uh setting boundaries right. That even then, you don't say things displease allah. Right and I believe there's also a verse in the quran about that that no matter how bad things get, there are still boundaries that you don't cross.

Speaker 3:

Yes. So our hope is that and this is the best example that we're trying to follow and we're trying to emulate that and our hope is that, even in moments of intense dysregulation, that we have some level of level-headedness where our emotions show up and we try not to cross those certain lines. What I would say is that there will be times, because he is the best example, we're supposed to follow him. We are not him. Is that you might? There might be times when you might not, you might not name that boundary, or you might say or do something, depending on you know what the trigger was or what happened that led to the conflict that boundaries might be crossed, you might forget the boundary. And that's where it's okay.

Speaker 3:

It's not the end of the world. We're not focusing on not making mistakes, we're focusing on the repair process. And so once, like, if we have a really and John Gottman talks about that, he says that the best, but from his research on the love labs, the happiest couples sometimes have screaming matches. Really, that's hard to believe, right? Yeah, they have screaming matches, but they're happy, connected couples. So when that happens, it's okay. It's not the end of the world. Both of you, like, we need to breathe, take some space and then we're going to come back and repair. Right, the word for that?

Speaker 3:

What I would say with clients is security. Right, that, as couples, we need to work towards building security in our marriage. Right, if we have conflict, we have screaming matches. I'm not trying to normalize screaming matches. I'm saying it will happen and it's okay. It's not the end of the world, but the idea is, as you get better at handling conflict, as you get better at your repair process, you build security. Security means you know it's going to be. We're going to have good days, we're going to have bad days, but I know you're here for me and I'm here for you. When a marriage lacks security, it's more like oh crap, we just had a fight. Is he going to leave me or do I need to run away? Do I need to leave? Did I make the wrong decision? And, by the way, in the first few years of marriage, it takes time to build security. So those are normal thoughts that can happen, because security doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1:

Interesting, interesting. So two questions. I'll just start with the one, not to confuse you. How can we train ourselves not to bring old conflicts and like, oh, remember three years, 15 days ago you said this, or remember when you said this to me? And sometimes it happens unintentionally. And even if we were able to resolve the conflict, sometimes some things just remain. So how can we, like, get rid of this?

Speaker 2:

yeah, free ourselves from the baggage package it's usually women that get that reputation that you brought up something three years ago. I didn't say it, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So the hope is we don't want to get to a point where things have built up for years and years and years, right? This is why we need so much education for couples when it's premarital, so that they have tools and resources to do their homework when they're choosing a spouse and that, once you're married, it's okay. It's still not the end of the world. How do we get more tools so that we're really good at handling conflict management? Yeah, so what I would say is don't let it build up over years. Part of it, too, is as there's two pieces to it. Part of it as you get to know each other and as you learn about each other.

Speaker 3:

John Gottman says that there's certain differences that you're not going to be able to ever resolve, and so it's about kind of.

Speaker 3:

Part of it is accepting certain flaws in our partner, and you have to take accountability over that of you know, I wish he was different in this way, but he's really not. And you know, do I want to leave or do I want to make this work? If I'm going to this work, then I need to maybe stop trying to change this one thing. I guess it depends on the thing as well. You might decide, nope, this is going to drive me crazy. And that's one of the things for researchers that look at relationships from a problem-focused lens is choose your partner based on the problems that you can't handle the problems that are going to drive you crazy. So if you're very protective of money and you want to save every penny and you're very, you know, intentional about where your money goes, and you're talking to someone who's you know just doesn't save, doesn't budget, that's probably not the best person for you to get to know further, right for you to get to know further, right?

Speaker 3:

So that opens up a whole other question of things, differences that we need to look out for. So religion is one thing we need to assess, for Money is another one. Children do they want to have children, do they not? If you want to have kids and they don't, you're not going to. Don't marry this person thinking you're going to convince them to have children, because it's going to build resentment, right? Don't marry this person thinking you're going to convince them to have children because it's going to build resentment, right? What are views about in-laws? How often are we expected to visit them? If issues come up with in-laws, how do we handle it as a couple, right? What are boundaries that are important to you? Is the other person on the same page? Those things, hopefully, ideally, you want to get to know before you make a decision to marry that person.

Speaker 3:

Once you're married and you're dealing with those issues, it's not the end of the world. You know we still make lots of dua. It happened, it was meant to be things like that, but then I guess your question kind of asks about that. So acceptance is one piece If you're already married and you're like, ok, like, is this something I can accept. Acceptance is one piece. If you're already married and you're like, ok, like, is this something I can accept, that helps with preventing build up a resentment over time, right. And then another thing, especially if these things have accumulated over time, is narrative, right.

Speaker 3:

Narrative therapy model is a big model that lots of therapists get trained in, and narrative therapy just looks at life as stories. What are the stories that I say about myself, what are the stories that I've internalized about my partner, my family, the stranger down the street? And so you have to be intentional about looking at your marriage and what are the stories that you're telling yourself about the other person? And is it leading to connection or disconnection? And if we bring within our faith kind of paradigm you know we believe in shaitan how does shaitan kind of affect the framing that happens during conflict about how we see our partner? And so in that case we need to reframe, right? Am I moving in a place where I've internalized all these stories about my partner that's leading to disconnection? How do we reframe? Sometimes you can't do it on your own, sometimes you need, you know, couples counseling things like that. Yeah, that's where I would start. Does that answer your question?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and, more Honestly, every time you answer a question, more questions come up. The topic is so vast that it's yeah, to answer with one or two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they hope I'm not hoarding the conversation, yeah, um, well, god remember. I said I have two questions, now they became three, okay, so, oh, my god, okay, I. I think that um, a lot of times, like like, of course, we're all Muslims, we know what we believe in, what we don't believe in, but, like in the moment, in the heat of the moment, a lot of these things become more like hypothetical or, like I did, like even, like you said, shaitan, like we realize, shaitan is an entity and, like you said, like there's a hadith where the prophet said if someone's angry and they're standing, sit down. If they're sitting down you're angry, then lay down because, like, shaitan is just fueling it. But when we're in the heat of the moment, all these things become like I don't know. Yes, not practical anymore. How can we actually internalize this and bring it into our conflicts?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so I don't know how much to answer that from an Islamic lens, but from my training as a trauma therapist depending on how heated the conflict is getting research shows that there's a point where, when our emotions are to such an intensity, the prefrontal cortex which is the part of the brain that focuses on meaning, making, problem solving, abstract thinking, reflecting that goes offline. Yeah, so that's why, when we're at that level, when you tell someone calm down, be grateful to Allah, when you start lecturing them, that's going over their head Right to Allah. When you start lecturing them, that's going over their head right. In those moments you can't expect yourself and the other person to stay grounded and logical and respect your boundaries. That is an unrealistic, unfair expectation. When we get to that point of intensity, both people should know that we shouldn't be engaging further with each other. We need to step away Because once you get to a level of intensity, you can problem solve for hours and hours and hours. You're not going to get anywhere. Probably you'll make things worse because your emotions are in the driver's seat and I've heard from couples they'll say, yeah, we had a fight and then for four hours that day we talked about it and I'm like no, don't do that. So there is such a thing where there's a line, when that's crossed, logic kind of goes out the window. And so it's not about how do I stay logical at that point, it's what do I need to do, knowing that logic has gone out the window and we need to step back, decompress, take some time and then come back and re-engage.

Speaker 3:

The work you, both of you, have to do is about that building that self-awareness and awareness of one another to say how do I know I'm moving in that direction and it can be, let's say, for both of you could be. I didn't sleep well the night before, I haven't eaten, I haven't been outside, I haven't moved around. You know I had issues with family that come up. Work was stressful and so if your cup is empty and you're moving in that direction and then one of you says or does something that kind of adds to that, and then you explode. Building that self-awareness means how do I know that, oh, I or my partner are moving in that direction? How do we take a step back before we even get there in the first place?

Speaker 3:

Probably on those days when we're the clinical term for it is when our window is small. On those days when our window is small and we can tell one or both of us is really out of it, probably those are not the best days to be having serious conversations, trying to make big decisions, and so it's up to each person to communicate hey, I think today I'm not well, and for the other person to respect that and say, okay, let's take a step back, let's check in with each other again. So it requires a lot of check-in and those check-ins are what's going to get in the way of the narrative, of the framing right. So if you tell your partner, hey, today's not a good day, like I'm not doing, well, you know, maybe you can take care of dinner I don't know what it might look like and your partner knows, then they're like, oh, she's just, she's not okay today, and I'm gonna remember that. Versus wow, she's being cold to me today, she's ignoring me, she didn't even bother making dinner, right?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, subhanallah. I'm just baffled right now because when you said that there's a part of the brain that stops like functioning normally when you get to that level of like anger, it just reminded me that, subhanallah, like in our sharia, when a divorce, like a talaq, happens in that kind of moment, it's not, um, like it doesn't. Actually it doesn't happen like subhanallah, because, like you said, like allah, like you're at a stage where you can't think clearly.

Speaker 3:

That's, that's amazing, and I want to add, because now your point is making me add more, so I think we're going to be here for a few hours. When I studied Islamic psychology, islam in itself is a form of healing, islam in itself is a form of therapy. And the way that Allah has ordained for us to go make wudu, to pray five times a day when we can, those are all meant to kind of serve as release, right, as moments when we step back, when we breathe, as opposed to just kind of running, running, running and doing the rat race of life. Right, I was in a therapy training where, for the DBT model, where they were saying yeah, when you're really heated and you want to yell, go to the washroom and wash your face with cold water. And they said put cold water from your hands all the way to your elbows.

Speaker 3:

And I was sitting there and I was like yeah, I was like, wait, it sounds like wudu, right. So I don't need to go in and analyze every act of worship in Islam and say, how does it fit with what Western therapy is telling us, no, no, islam doesn't need that. Islam in itself is a form of therapy. So if we, you know, we make dua, we're intentional about fulfilling those acts of worship. It's going to help us in our relationships with ourselves, in our marriage and in our ability to regulate ourselves.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely beautiful, like the shaitan itself. We know it. It's made of heat, it's made of fire. So when you go make wudu, it puts like, puts off that heat and that fire. And like the prophet alaihi salam used, like if he got anxious about something, he used to run away to prayer.

Speaker 3:

Subhanallah, like I would really love if even us, on a personal level, we start implementing these, these beautiful like practices yeah, yeah, and I just heard from a friend we, uh, my husband and I, visited his cousins and we were asking them because they're they've been married longer than us. We said what's your marriage advice? And he said go to allah before you go to your husband.

Speaker 3:

Um, and it doesn't mean, like you know, avoid talking to things with your husband, but it means, like, especially in those moments where you're really upset, you're really frustrated with the other person and you're like, why aren't they hearing me? You go to Allah, you complain, uh, you ask for his help, you, you, you know, you name your helplessness, um, the hurt that you're feeling, you cry if you need to, you let it out, you know, and then you come back and say let's talk. And so it's kind of like, if you imagine a pressure cooker, you're releasing some of that through, you know, talking to Allah, and then you go back and, of course, allah, you know, hears your duas, hears your pain, and he intervenes in whatever way he thinks is best. But, yeah, beautiful and the sorry once more that the go to Allah before your husband.

Speaker 3:

That applies in all relationships, not just when you're married if you're single and you looking go to Allah before you go to your parents and all those things. Sorry, zaid.

Speaker 2:

No, that's fine. One of the few phrases I know in Arabic is which means. I hope I can translate that.

Speaker 3:

I complain to Allah about you To the one and only and imagine if you, instead of doing doing that, you went to your parents or you know friends and started playing right.

Speaker 1:

Like what would happen sometimes people just add fuel to the fire. Yeah, keeping a fire and heat, yeah, I think these beautiful practices and practical practices because someone might look at them and say, yeah, yeah, these things like okay, but give me something practical, but these are practical. I think these practices are like one of the things that single Muslims can start like developing and growing before marriage. There's a lot to do before you get married.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I would say build your relationship with Allah, focus on your prayers. Those are all ways that you're learning how to self-regulate and you know it's, you're working on your heart, and when that happens and you meet someone else and you're building a life with them, it's going to be a lot easier. It doesn't mean it's going to be without issues, but Islam is a resource, it's a tool that we can draw from.

Speaker 1:

Any resources you can recommend to our single listeners to prepare them.

Speaker 3:

Anything, yeah. So I quoted gotman a lot. He has lots of uh, and I think it's his wife too. They do research together, so it's john and julie gotman. So I would go into uh, go to youtube, look at the love labs. Gary chapman is another one, where five love languages, um, love tank, um, even learning about attachment is important to figure out.

Speaker 3:

You know, when it comes to conflict, are you an avoider? Are you a little more of an anxious person where you're a bit clingy? None of that is bad. It's just how do you need, what are ways that you need to cope on your own, and what would you need from a partner? And so, keeping that in mind, when you're getting to know someone and I would say a lot of it comes back to a lot of relational work, I would say is doing the work on yourself. And the work never stops, even when you're married. You know the work continues. But sometimes we get so focused on finding that person that we're not doing the work on ourselves. So do that. We're not doing the work on ourselves. So do that. Strengthen your relationship with Allah. Work on being a better Muslim. You don't have to be perfect. Make lots of dua, ask Allah for help. You know prayers are really important. Start there, even if you're not doing all five, but just show up with some effort and sincerity and make lots of dua.

Speaker 2:

So for single Muslims listening right now, who haven't lived with a partner yet, some practical or three practical things they can start doing before marriage to get better at conflict.

Speaker 3:

So and I've probably sound like a broken radio, I've said this a few times build self-awareness, work on yourself, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Think about conflict. How do you respond to conflict? Are you someone that withdraws? Are you a pursuer? And look at your current relationships and yes, there's some relationships that are tricky. Things with family might be complicated, there's no denying of that. But is there room in other friendships to practice, or even within your family, those more kind of practicing those skills communicating, strengthening emotion, regulation, things like that? So you don't need to just build those skills with a partner, you can practice those. How do you set boundaries in your single days, things like that? And then I would say get support if you need like that um. And then I would say get support if you need um.

Speaker 3:

When I was in cambridge and we were studying uh, I'm studying islamic psychology there I talked a little bit about the window of tolerance and how sometimes we can get pushed out of our capacity and how much we can handle. And I asked it was sheikh idris watts. I don't know if he's familiar to you guys. I've heard the name. Follow him on instagram. He's really amazing. He's a trauma therapist and he studies the Quran, so he kind of brings the two together, which is amazing, yeah. So I just asked him.

Speaker 3:

I said, okay, so the Western kind of model of the window of capacity there's a window and we're kind of sometimes within that window and then things happen in life that pushes us out of our window, where I even named the prefrontal cortex, goes offline.

Speaker 3:

Doesn't that mean that Allah is giving us in that moment more than we can handle? And it's a question that I'm still kind of asking. Like I don't know all the answers to, but he said sometimes, when we're out of our window and things feel really hard, it might not be that Allah expects us to carry more weight or carry that burden. Sometimes he expects us to ask for help and maybe we're just trying too hard to figure it out on our own and we're stretching ourselves more than Allah wants us to stretch. So getting support, asking for help, but also doing the same thing when you're married as well, and even asking with a potential partner, you know, if we're struggling on our own, maybe there's conflict, that over time it's just getting worse. What would we do at that point? Who would we ask for support? Things like that okay.

Speaker 1:

Do you work with single muslims or just couples? Yeah, I do. Individual and couple okay. And if someone would reach out to you and seek your services, how would they do that?

Speaker 3:

yeah, so um, the practice that I'm part of is called Muslim Women's Wellness. We're supporting Muslim Women's Wellness and we also offer relational therapy if that's needed, because that is also helping women in their wellness. So it's called muslimwomenswellnesscom.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we will link that inshallah. So you work exclusively with women?

Speaker 3:

Yes, it's myself, and I have three other associates.

Speaker 1:

Okay, okay, awesome. Wow, I hope we didn't. Yeah, we didn't ask too many. Honestly, I still have more. Maybe we'll save that for another interview.

Speaker 3:

No worries, yeah, jazakallah khair, nice chatting with you both, thank you so much our, our beautiful listeners.

Speaker 1:

We hope you took some homework to do yourself. Don't wait for marriage to happen and conflict to happen until you start doing the work. Um, there's still a lot to do now and, inshallah, we hope you took some gyms with you all right, salam alaikum yeah, salam alaikum.