Diary of a Matchmaker

This Could Save Your Marriage Before It Starts w/ Hina Mirza

• Halal Match • Episode 77

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Most couples obsess over the wedding details: venues, flowers, guest lists... but skip the one step that actually prepares you for marriage. We know because we skipped it too. And trust us, it’s a mistake we don't want you to make.

Today we sit down with psychotherapist Hina Mirza to uncover why premarital counseling isn’t some boring checklist, it’s the ultimate hack for a smoother, happier marriage. Think of it as marriage prep you’ll actually enjoy: decoding communication, spotting blind spots, and setting up love to last. If you think you know what premarital counseling is, think again. This is the one thing EVERY couple needs before saying “I do.”

Connect with Hina on Instagram at @hinamirza.


If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


SPEAKER_02:

Asalamu alaikum. I'm Hiba.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Zayd.

SPEAKER_02:

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_01:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_01:

So let's dive in. Bismillah. Alright, Rabbi Shahli Sadhari Wassili Amri wahla al Aktam Millisani of Kahu Kauli. Welcome everyone to another episode of Diary of a Matchmaker. I'm Zayd, and on the other mic is my wife and co-host Hibba. We are lucky and honored to have a guest by the name of Sister Hina Mirza, who is a psycho registered psychotherapist with over 20 years of experience. She has a master's in psychology with a focus on premarital counseling and couples therapy. As a therapist, she frames her treatment planning with cultural sensitivity, religious values, and an awareness of individual needs. So thank you for coming onto the podcast. So premarital counseling, needless to say, is a hot topic these days. And uh when I think back as to when I was getting married, and alhamdulillah, we've been married for about more than five years now. I didn't really hear much about it. There wasn't much discussion. And now I'm seeing that some scholars won't even conduct a niqah without it. Some have their own premarital seminars or online courses. So why do you think it's suddenly everywhere? And is it coming out of a crisis that we're seeing with Muslims or what's going on?

SPEAKER_00:

So Basilla rahman, rahim as a sadam, and Rasulullah. Um, a little bit of both say. So one of the things that has definitely shifted the tide is our comfort in having conversation around marriage and relationships and familial life. Um, a lot of the times you would notice that, you know, in our khutbas, in our talks, around conferences, and just the general where the public is consuming knowledge and information, these topics were not discussed. People would not want to talk about relationships and love and marriage and being a certain way to your spouse or being a certain way in your home. And then I'm gonna say, I'm gonna go out there and say about 10 years ago, the tide started shifting. And I think it is uh all credit does go to a lot of the imams who started bringing this up in Jummachutbaz. You know, they really started talking about family life and the value and the importance of relationships with each other. And all of a sudden the landscape shifts. Now, the other part of what you just said that is it becoming out of a crisis? Partly, yes. We're noticing that divorce rates are really high, people are really struggling in their relationships, marital dissatisfaction is um on the rise. So it now it becomes a relevant conversation that if this is an existing problem, how are we gonna fix it? And the number one solution is educate yourself, much like anything else in life, right? Like if you're confused, uncertain, uh knowing of something, then just learn more about it. And then alhamdulillah, you know, I'm gonna say that simultaneously the mental health scene for Muslims also started rising, and it allowed us to really do a lot of research on what's happening in our homes and what are the crises and what's causing problems. And then alhamdulillah, they both came together really well because then the solution was let's offer marital education to younger couples and almost as though to plan better for their relationship. And then, alhamdulillah, when those doors opened, you know, the more time we have, the more research we have, the more opportunity to learn from our own teaching, it just became a phenomenon. And then now, alhamdulillah, all major organizations and platforms, uh, Muslim organizations and platforms offer some form of marital learning, marital courses. Uh, imams are offering training, there's therapists that do premarital counseling. So it's just become very easy to access now. And I'm gonna say that one last thing about this is that people have become very embracing of their therapeutic journey. Because initially, um, you know, 10 years ago, if somebody was gonna go to therapy for marriage counseling or even premarriage counseling, it was almost like a shameful thing to discuss and talk about. But subhanAllah, now people, I mean, like I have people who will tag me on Instagram that, you know, attending premarriage counseling at Hena Mirza, and I'm like, oh, okay, this is a thing now. It's become kind of cool. It's become kind of trendy to go in and uh get premarriage counseling. So Alhamdulillah normalizing it has made such a difference.

SPEAKER_02:

That's amazing. I think uh like therapy in general, and like you said, mental health in general, um, like has witnessed a huge shift. Uh is it something like we're picking up from like non-Muslims or what?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, actually, no. The concept of nasiha in Islam, the concept of seeking counsel, or the concept of uh getting shura or advice, or just you know, turning to somebody that you love that matters to you, that values, and of course a person of knowledge, you know, like a person of sound knowledge, this has been part of the Islamic tradition since the very beginning. So definitely not a Western concept, but in fact, um, and you know, something to keep in mind that secular counseling actually doesn't work for Muslims because the way we are and the way we're designed, you can't take the Islam out of us. So even when it comes to concepts like premarriage counseling, you can't go and attend premarriage counseling without incorporating Islam into it because a big part of who we are and our belief system and the way that we engage with our partners and our family members and our parents, a lot of it is rooted deeply in Islamic beliefs and values. So you can't separate the two. But I would like to say though that uh Islam is the OG founder of premarital counseling because Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has introduced so many concepts in the Quran to us about our rights and responsibilities. And then the Prophet, through his actions and behaviors within his home and his instruction to the sahabas, has really taught us a lot about what our mannerisms should be as husband and wife and in a relationship. So yeah, I'm not gonna let anybody else take credit for Hamas. Alhamdulillah, this is a very Islamic thing. Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah.

SPEAKER_02:

Do you think every couple needs therapy? Not therapy, every couple need premarital counseling, or can some couples actually afford not to?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, hiba, let's just go with the slip of the tongue there. Does every couple need therapy? Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

One person.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm not I'm not saying this because I'm a therapist and I'm like, yeah, every couple needs therapy. Um, it's just the way that we are in the world today. The world has evolved. Relationships have evolved. They're not simple and straight anymore. There's so many things and so many influences and so many complications in our lives that basically what therapy does is it declutters the emotion in your marriage. Imagine not ever clearing up or cleaning up your house. Just imagine every single day, you know, garbage is gathering, the dishes are gathering, the laundry is piling up, and you're just kind of like, I don't need to do it. I've got more clothes in the closet, I've I've got more dishes in the cupboard, or, you know, I mean, just continuously creating more and more and more waste and garbage in your home, but never clearing it out.

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a nice metaphor. It's all gonna catch up one day. And when it does, it's gonna be an overwhelming task that you might not even want to take on. And this and psychologically you might say, you know what, let's just move. Let's just get out of here. Like, let's just let's just leave this because it's too much of a mess. And I don't think we can handle it, or I don't think we can create it. And what I want you to kind of visualize in your head is 10 years of cluttering your home with garbage, 15 years of cluttering your home, not just a week or not just a couple of days. I'm talking years and years of cluttering your home with garbage. Eventually, you're not gonna be able to physically live there anymore. It's gonna become unlivable for you. So when we talk about normalizing therapy, what it does is it just helps you clear out the emotional clutter. So as often as you're clearing your home, you're throwing away garbage, it's important to have some form of guided check-in or some form of instruction. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, hopefully we're all throwing our garbage out regularly and cleaning regularly. You do not have to be in therapy that regularly. If you're a healthy, functional couple, a once-a-month check-in is plenty. It's more than enough. And then if you're working with a therapist that gives you tools, then you will have regular weekly check-ins with your partner, daily points of connection with your partner. So it's basically just imagine relationship hygiene. You want to stay healthy, you want to stay, keep the relationship productive, clean, meaningful. Um, you need therapy. You need a place to be able to clear out the clutter. And then, of course, you've got that, you know, you've got that appointment once a month that if you come across a roadblock or something that gets in the way and you're not able to take care of it or solve it at home, then you've always got a place to go and unpack it before it gets too accumulated or you know, before it gets too late.

SPEAKER_02:

The thing is, what if you don't realize you don't know actually that you live in a cluttered home? Like I'm just thinking about Zayn Zayd and me. We've like, like I said, when we got married, we didn't do premarital counseling, we've never done any type of therapy. And um like I think we have a healthy relationship. I'm afraid we have our ups and downs.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm afraid, I'm afraid if we go and do therapy, we're gonna discover so much we didn't know. I love it. I'm so glad you asked me this because a lot of the times you and is this is such a genuine, honest question. A lot of the times couples are afraid to go because they don't want to know what lies beneath the surface. Everything looks good. You know, if it ain't broken, go fix it. And so I I like that approach. I definitely like it. Um, however, here's the problem when couples come in for counseling, they always come in with problems. It's very rare, if not impossible, to have a couple like you guys come in and say, everything is great, but we came in anyways. Okay. A lot of the times couples will come in for counseling because there's something wrong. And when there's something wrong, that means there's a fire that we have to put out. So we spend a lot of time, a lot of our energy, a lot of our attention just putting out that fire. And it does become almost like a Pandora's box that you know sorry again. This part I did not factor in. The uh, you know, like when you're starting a car and it needs to warm up a little bit, and then you're like, okay, we can't drive out just yet. We gotta let the engine run for a bit. I think it gives away my age that you gotta let the engine run a bit. I should have been up at six o'clock in the morning trying to get the engine going. Alhamdulillah.

SPEAKER_02:

We were actually when we read that you have 20 years of um uh experience, we're like, mashallah, how old is she? She looks so young.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so let me just clarify counseling is a second career for me. 20 years ago, I was in writing and publishing and I was working as an educator on parenting, and then it sort of segued into therapy, alhamdulillah. But um, okay, so just coming back to that concept that if a couple is coming into therapy with clutter, it's about that my attention, energy, and focus is on helping them with that particular problem. But interestingly enough, the problem does not exist because it stands alone, the problem exists because there is a unhealthy pattern. The couple has certain, like, you know, for example, there might be some anxiety, there might be some fears, there might be some limitations. So there's an unhealthy underlying problem that keeps popping up in the marriage, and it looks like we're having different fights, but usually we're not. So it really helps uncover a lot of things that have been long standing in the relationship. Um, I will say though, however, marriage counseling, even if you're not going into a therapist's office to discuss anything, marriage counseling, pre-marriage counseling is a lot about information gaining. And that's something that we should always be doing. You know, like when we're taught in as Muslims to seek out knowledge from cradle to grave, we're encouraged to learn. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala teaches us over and over again the value of education and learning and expanding our mind. That obviously aligns with marriage as well. Why would you leave your marriage unattended and learn so many other things? It makes a very healthy marriage when two people are working towards the same goal and want to educate themselves around it, you know, like learn more skills, learn more tools, attend classes, and then, you know, allow themselves the permission to say maybe things could be better, and then working towards whatever that better means to them.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I like what you said earlier, which is there is an openness and kind of receptiveness towards premarital counseling, I'd say more so than our parents' generation and our parents' parents' generation. So do you feel like people are still approaching it with the same attitude that they approach exams or jobs or even buying a house that they're preparing it for it that way, or there's still a lot of um work to be done?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, if you had asked me this question five years ago, I would have said to you that we still have a long way to go. You know, people are not attending pre-marriage counseling as much as they should. Even today, there are still limitations. There aren't people are not prioritizing it, which if you ask me, I don't get it. I just I don't understand why somebody wouldn't prioritize marriage counseling. I I see people spending hundreds and thousands of dollars on the wedding itself, on flowers and clothing and food, and you know, just making that evening look magical and memorable. But then what happens after? And you know, it's really interesting because when we uh, you know, with a lot of my couples, when we're in pre-marriage counseling, one of the things that I tell them is a lot of couples get into serious fights at their honeymoon. Oh, wow. Yeah. And we don't realize it that, you know, during the time of the wedding, we're just holding a lot of emotion because it's a very emotional time. It's not just the function and making sure everything goes right, it's an emotional transition for us as well, both for men and women. So your brain and your body and your heart, everything is going into this tumultuous week-long celebration where you're essentially in our culture put up on display with all these expectations of smiling and photographs and entrances, and it takes a huge toll. It takes a huge toll because, in the background, in the back of your mind, you've got running expectations, fears, you know, what's gonna happen after the marriage, and you're not prepared for it. So you've never had these conversations. Um, and you're in this weeklong festival, and when you come out of it, your nervous system is wrecked. And so the minute something happens, it's kind of like imagine holding everything in like that, and then all of a sudden letting go. And when you let go, you're at your honeymoon, and something very slight happens. One or both partners will just have this explosive anger situation, walk away from one another, and this is the painful part that your brain remembers emotions and feelings. Okay, human beings don't remember facts as much as they remember feelings. So, whenever you think of your honeymoon, you'll think of that argument, you'll think of that fight. And I it just breaks my heart to think that this is, you know, I mean, the wedding is a beautiful thing, and inshallah, if you can, you know, celebrate the way that you want, inshallah, as long as it's halal. But your honeymoon is where you're actually together. If you guys are you're going on one, or even in the first week of marriage, even if you're not going on a trip. That early stage of marriage, this is the first time you're together. It's such a beautiful experience. And a lot of couples will trace back to that early few days of marriage, and they will remember an ugly fight, they'll remember abandonment, they will remember neglect, they will remember feeling lonely and isolated and not like disconnected from their partner, and that's the foundation that they put in their marriage. It's a very scary thing because guess what happens? Every single time that negative emotion comes back up in the marriage, it literally yanks you from the beginning, the day early stages, all the way to now, and it pulls with it that same emotion and it feels overwhelming and it feels like you're gonna drown in it. So, premarriage counseling, we actually prepare you for this. We prepare you for wedding week. We I talk to you about what's gonna happen, what are the ways you're gonna keep your emotions in check, what are the ways that you're gonna allow yourself some cognitive closure, leaving your parents' home or leaving your family and moving into a new home and the transition that it's got you're gonna experience. We talk about all of it because it's not just about communication and conflict resolution, it's a lot about self-regulation, about managing your own feelings and your own emotions, not just through the wedding, but then how it translates to after marriage and then being newlyweds and then inshallah, so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, we actually dedicated a video about the topic of the honeymoon. Ahibba and I we got married just a few months before COVID hit, and due to circumstance, we had to delay our honeymoon, and then we didn't end up going on our honeymoon until just last year, actually. And um, and one of the videos we shared is just that suggesting or advising people to delay their honeymoon. There's no reason you need to have it like the moment you get married, put it off for a little bit, make sure you have the the financial means to do it. Like you said, it's a bit overwhelming during that first week. So there's just something to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's be a little bit more practical. So I like that you gave us a glimpse of what's like uh what to expect in uh premarital counseling, but give us a like walk us through it. There's this couple, they're engaged, uh, their wedding is in two months, and they come to you. What happens?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so Hiba, believe it or not, uh there's actually something called compatibility counseling that I do as well. Compatibility counseling is when you're just in the talking stages and you're not really sure whether this is the right person for me or not. And what compatibility counseling is the first module of premarital counseling, anyways. So it's not uh separate from that. But what happens is that when you're very early on and you're still like, oh, not sure, is this the one? Is this not the one? When you come in for compatibility counseling, and here's a couple of things I'll lay out what's gonna happen. I'm going to start bringing up your, or we're gonna actually start exploring each other's blueprint, that initial emotional blueprint. What are the person's strengths? What are the person's weaknesses and challenges that they face? What are their values in life? What are their fears in life? And then we're gonna discover and talk a little bit about their emotional triggers and behavioral reactions to those triggers. Now, unlike what it sounds like in compatibility counseling, I don't give you a green check mark or a red X to say, yes, you're good to get married, and no, you can't get married. That's not what happens. Basically, what it allows the couple to do is to really learn about themselves and learn about their partner at a very intimate level that usually is not a part of those lists of questions that are offered that couples can ask. And it opens up dialogue and conversation between them as well in a safe setting. So it's not awkward and uncomfortable, and it's a guided conversation with me as a therapist. At the end of compatibility counseling, the couple now knows about themselves from a very different perspective and it allows them to make a more informed decision. I will bring it up, for example, if there are opposing values, I will bring it up to them. If one person's strengths contradict another person's strengths, like they they both seem to be very headstrong, you know, both are alphas. If somebody's uh weaknesses and fears are clashing, I will make sure that I point that out to them. I show that to them. Then, for example, when we talk about trigger responses, we the general four are fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. I will help each other, like the partners understand this is your partner's go-to space when they get triggered. Now imagine if somebody who is a fighter, a pursuer, and wants to have the conversation gets married to a flight, somebody who runs away and wants to just clear their head and doesn't want to argue and doesn't want to fight, this person is gonna feel overwhelmed and this person is gonna feel abandoned. And so we want to make sure that you know what you're getting into. It's just being more informed. The decision is, of course, still yours, inshallah. You make it with the best of intention, with the guidance of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala through your istiharah, you include your parents, you include your loved ones, the ones who are part of your decision-making process. All of that still remains, but it just allows you to understand what you're getting married to, what you're getting married into. And so then I can help if you decide to pursue premarital counseling, I can help you navigate those tools and say, okay, well, when you or your partner goes into flight mode, how do you handle it? When your partner gets triggered, how do you handle it? Just so that you're more in sync with each other rather than, you know, when conflict actually arises, it leaves us feeling lonely and vulnerable. Instead of that, it allows conflict actually becomes a means for connection. But compatibility counseling is a starting point that gives you that sense of direction that is this person a good fit? Like, am I ready to take this on? So the first module is always about self-reflection, self-regulation, and self-awareness. Teaches you about yourself and then teaches you about your partner. The second module that I always talk about is healthy attachment. Then, yes, there is unhealthy attachment, you know, love bombing and being overly codependent and so on and so forth. So we talk about healthy attachment, being able to give your partner space, being able to incorporate their parents, their family into the bigger picture, you know, just being able to understand that people have hobbies and sports that they are a part of and they have relationships with other friends and so on and so forth. So, how do you navigate that? How do you create healthy attachment with one another, building that base while allowing space for life to be a part of, you know, like the life journey to continue? And in that, yes, the emphasis is that in the beginning of your marriage, you really do have to pour into that relationship. It's not your life will not look like it was before, and then just be like, yeah, in my spare time, I'll be a husband. It's not, it's not like that, but just definitely helping people understand how to navigate healthy attachment. Then I talk about communication, learning how to express needs, learning how to communicate, have conversations that might seemingly seem difficult. What are the best ways to have those conversations? And what are it's like again, I'll go back to that statement I made earlier. Part of relationship hygiene is consistent open communication with each other. So creating patterns in your marriage for that conversation to happen. Then I talk about conflict resolution. Conflict resolution is absolutely imperative because everybody fights, everybody fights. But you know, something that's important to remember is conflict does not have to break the relationship. It does not have to fracture you in a way that it feels hard to repair again. Conflict can actually sometimes be a beautiful means of connection. So I have this foolproof plan that I introduce to people. I use it in my marriage, although it's so difficult to put into practice. But I will teach you the skills of how to navigate conflict, how to navigate when one person is hurt, the other is not, when both people are hurt, how do you work through that? And then finally, the last module that I work on is decision making. Because as a couple, you are constantly making choices, whether you know it's about what are we eating Friday night or whose house are we gonna go to on Sunday? Are we gonna visit are my parents on Eid morning or E afternoon? And when are we doing visiting your parents? When are we having a baby? Are we gonna buy? Are we gonna rent? Are we gonna invest in the stock market? Are we buying shares or real estate? You know, there's so many decisions that a couple is consistently going through, and there needs to be a hierarchy and a model of that decision making put into place so that every decision doesn't turn into a conflict and so on and so forth. So that over that's just kind of like an overview of what actually happens in couples counseling. But then after that, I definitely because I work with couples one-on-one, I don't do courses uh in bulk. So I do uh when I'm working with them one-on-one, it then it leaves time and space for them to personalize it for themselves. You know, if they have personal issues, for example, if uh they're gonna be co-inhabiting with parents, or if they are a blended family, one of them has been divorced, if there's a child in the mix. So a lot of the times people can then use utilize therapy as a means to really just bring up their own personal story, and then inshallah I can take it from there.

SPEAKER_02:

A lot to unpack.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot to unpack. Um, there's one thing that comes to my hiba and I were just talking about this, I think about a week ago, and um, which is people sometimes taking these things to the extreme. What do I mean by that? What I mean is let's take attachment styles, and people just come in with this approach, thinking that, oh, this person does not have the attachment style that I'm looking for, therefore they're not compatible, or this person doesn't have the personality, personality type that I'm looking for, therefore they're not gonna work. And so we just write people off on these terms that we don't fully understand, and we just complicate the search for marriage more so than our gener our older parents, because our parents had it so much easier to an extent, and they weren't thinking about these things, right? And they were just like, oh, the person's that comes from a good family, let's get them married. But we sometimes take these things to an extreme, I think, and we complicate our search. You think there's some truth to that or not?

SPEAKER_00:

So too much information and too much digging and too much um, you know, trying to see and solve everything can also be a problem. Uh, there has to be an element of tawko, there has to be an element of surrender, there has to be an element of trust. Uh, you can do your homework, but don't overdo it. You know how, like they say, moderation is key. It's important to understand that yes, you need to cover certain elements to make sure that you are educated, knowledgeable. But remember, these are skill building. This is not about what I can discover that's gonna make this person incompatible. It's like I'm almost looking for a reason to say no. That's not what it should be. It should be about let me, you know how I mentioned incompatibility counseling? That it's not about whether this person's good or not. It's about whether I am able to take this on or not. And so if that's the approach that we're gonna go with, that compatibility counseling is gonna teach me what I'm signing up for, then I think all the other skills, everything else that we talk about, everything else that we learn as in lieu of therapy, is just to open our own minds and expand our own minds, not to look for flaws in the other person. Because yes, if you start digging, of course you're gonna find problems in a person, and then nobody is gonna be good enough and everybody will eventually be single.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. I especially like uh what you mentioned about compatibility counseling. Like we spoke to a lot of therapists and counselors. I've never heard this before. Do you notice that people really need it or can they do the work on their own?

SPEAKER_00:

As long as you're doing the work. I think that's the most important thing. If you have somebody, it's I mean, think of it like this self-learning modules and learning from online and learning in person with a teacher. Everybody is a different style learner, but the most important thing is just learn. Don't get into this without any preparation or any um, you know, just without without trying to set yourself off right. Don't don't even attempt it because why would you know? I mean, I I spoke about this at another in another space before as well. And I said this that in the past, seeking knowledge required traveling for months to find that scholar or that person of knowledge who could help you. Now you don't have that excuse. You've got knowledge on your phone, in your hands, on your laptop, podcasts, YouTube videos, e-learning. We don't have an excuse anymore to say that why we're not pursuing knowledge or why we're not learning and why we're not educating ourselves about something. So I just feel like it's just easier now. It's easier, it's accessible. It wouldn't make any sense to me today if somebody gets married and says we didn't attempt any form of premarriage counseling. Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, I guess that we got lucky. Yeah, we did. But no, honestly, the more like you were talking about what you discussed. And premarital counseling, I'm like, we sure like we could have really used that. Like yeah, it just seems like it's very, very much needed. And uh just wanted to ask so out of these three topics, uh money, in-laws and intimacy, which one do you feel it's harder for couples to discuss and they need the most?

SPEAKER_00:

Which is the hardest to discuss? In-laws. Because it's it's like it's like walking into landmine territory. Because if you I mean, essentially the conversation is about the other person's family. So if you're talking about your mother-in-law and her behaviors and challenges, you're actually talking about the other guy's mom. And it's a very delicate conversation to navigate. It's a very delicate conversation because it's highly emotionally triggering. And everybody is protective of their family, everybody is protective of their parents. When it comes to conversation around money, I feel like it can actually uh very strategically be handled very logically. Uh, you know, you can approach it very logically, you can divide depending on uh income and so on and so forth, and you know, what the approach the couple wants to take and what lifestyle they're aiming to live. I feel like you can stay very logical when it comes to a financial conversation. Intimacy for a couple is a very exciting adventure. They're very, they're kind of like giggly and laughing about it, but you know, they're very open to, okay, well, what do you have to say? And okay, what can we do? So it's almost as though it's a very inquisitive topic that I you know, we we are we are not entirely 100% comfortable, but we're still um excited and interested. But when it comes to in-laws, it's a landmine because you kind of gotta be like, I don't know where I'm walking, what's gonna set what off. And again, as I said, it's such a heavily emotional topic that sometimes it results in, you know, is it me or is it your family? And you know, obviously that is a question we should never ask.

SPEAKER_01:

I was not expecting that.

SPEAKER_02:

I was sure you were gonna see intimacy on the street.

SPEAKER_01:

I was thinking the same thing, yeah. Uh, and I'm sure it gets more sensitive if the plan is for the girl to move into the parents' house or the guy's the guy's parents.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yes. Oh, oh yes, and you know, because of the economy today, a lot of young couples are actually unable to afford their own space and they have to start off whether they live in a basement or whether they live in the uh you know in the family home. A lot of couples are having to say to you know, make this decision that let's save for a couple of years so then we can get our own place or whatnot. And this is a very real outcome in a lot of marriages. So, yes, absolutely. This conversation around boundaries, the conversation about being comfortable around, you know, brother-in-laws or other sister-in-laws and whatnot, it's it's a very serious one and it's very uncomfortable because you don't know what's gonna trigger your partner or set them off, or you know, if you are trying to express a need, how that need will be received. So it becomes very, very difficult to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, I I want to go back to something you mentioned before, trust. You mentioned trust, like you have to have uh tawakal and trust. Now, something we keep coming across while working with single Muslims is this sense that there's lack of trust. Like, of course, you don't know the other person yet, so you can't fully trust them, but still they're like trying. I need to protect myself in terms of like I need to have my own uh my own savings, my own bank account because I don't know what's gonna happen. I need to protect myself. So, is this healthy or is this reasonable?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think? It's an unfortunate reality, and I wish I could be idealistic and say to you, Hiba, no, everything is great, everybody is fine, you should put 100% trust in your partner. But the more I'm seeing in our communities, the amount of lying and the amount of deception that is out there, um, and I want to I want to approach this very tactfully because ultimately it is the way of Islam that we follow. So I'm not, I cannot bypass that. I cannot say to you that yes, you know, everybody do your own money and so on and so forth. Islam has put certain things into place with purpose and with reason. And as Muslims, we honor that and we abide by it, like we live by it. So, for example, for a man to provide for his home, for a man to take care of his family, that's a very important uh responsibility that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has put upon the man, but also has made it rewarding for him. So when men spend in their home, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala in return puts barakah in their wealth. When they don't spend in their home, well, you know, the barakah factor is not a tangible thing because, you know, as Muslims, we know that a hundred does not equal a hundred, a hundred equals whatever Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wants it to equal. So when it comes to these matters of, you know, can I trust my partner? I would say that try to build your marriage as closely to what the Prophet and Allah have instructed us to, like as closely as we have been taught to do so, because there is a lot of barakah in following that model. Now, outside of that, having savings as a woman to protect yourself, having an income or whatnot, that can be something that is a very private conversation between the couple. Uh, I don't think it's the same for everybody, but I do want to say that trust is something that is built not just on finances and household responsibility, but it is the connection of the heart. Trust is built when there is reliance. Can I count on you? Are you gonna be there for me? Not just financially, not just physically, but emotionally. Are you gonna show up when I'm hurting? Are you gonna be able to pick me up if I fall down? And those are the things that really contribute to trust building as well. So, yes, you know, tie your camel if you have uh uncertainty in your life, if you don't have a fallback plan, it doesn't hurt to have savings, and it doesn't hurt to have protection in the but at the same time, my number one go-to is please try to live and abide by the Sunnah of the Prophet and follow the teachings of the Prop Rasulullah. That will that will take you a lot further in your marriage, in your relationship, in trust building and then reliance on one another more than anything else will.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I want to touch upon parents a little bit and the role that they play, because sometimes I feel like parents might come in thinking that seeking premarital counseling might undermine their role as if couples are outsourcing advice that they should be getting from family. So have you run into any situations where there's been resistance from parents or a certain aversion towards seeking premarital counseling?

SPEAKER_00:

Actually, Zaid, it's actually funny that you asked that. I actually have a lot of parents come to me and say, My kid is getting married, I'm gonna send them for premarriage counseling.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, the complete opposite. Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I've actually had a grandmother who whose wedding gift to her grandson was premarriage counseling. So she said she was gonna cover it and she was gonna pay for it. And uh, you know, just I have a lot of parents now saying to their children, go get premarriage counseling. And then I have a lot of kids as well, you know, like younger couples who are getting married who will say that this is an important value and whatnot. But just as a message out there, nobody can replace parents. Nobody out there can replace the value that the parents can bring, the advice and the support that a parent can bring into their child's life. Nobody can take that place. And premarriage counseling is not about advice advice giving or emotionally bonding with the child. I keep saying child, I don't know why I'm saying this, I'm thinking as a parent because they're adults that are getting married. I'll be less uh um okay, so yeah, kind of coming back to that. Premarriage counseling is taking a class, it's a course, and you get into premarriage counseling with this intention that I want to learn something to be able to apply it into my relationship. Now that's the foundation of the work that's being done. What parents do is they form, you know, they have emotional bonds with their children, they give them love, they give them support, they give them encouragement, they help them problem solve, they should actually. So, what moms and dads can do for their children who are getting married, a therapist can never do. Don't ever think that this is a threat to your parenting, that your children are trying to pursue premarriage counseling or marriage counseling. Um, it's very important to understand that the roles are very, very different. Now, I have, mashallah, two girls who are of marriageable age, and one of the things that I actually tell them is that if you are looking to get married and the man you are talking to is not open to pre-marriage counseling, that's a red flag. That's a red flag right there. I'm like, nope, nope, nope. If the guy says he's not open to pre-marriage counseling, or the guy's mom is like, no, no, in our family, we don't do this stuff. And they're like, nope, that's a big red flag. Because the problem is that if you're not open to learning and skill building, that tells me a lot about you as a person. That tells me that you're closed-minded. It tells me that you're not the kind of person who's going to be resilient and want to fight for this relationship when things are gonna get tough. So it's for me that's uh that's high on that list. You know, you tell me that you're but you're talking to somebody, a girl or a guy. I mean, I'm talking about my daughters, but even if you're a young man out there getting married to somebody or thinking of getting married, and the young lady says, No, I don't want to do premarriage counseling, I don't want to think I want to marry you.

SPEAKER_01:

Would you conduct the session in that situation or would you not? If one is being dragged, meaning for for uh for a potential son-in-law, would you be the one to sit down and have the session or would be like, no, this is a little too long?

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no, no, that would be conflict of interest. I I would never put the I would never put the poor guy in that situation. But you know, I mean alhamdulillah, I'm as a parent, I will always be there to support my daughters and give them the you know whatever is uh kind of support they need as a mom, but I would definitely not be their marriage counselor because that would be uncomfortable and awkward and uh definitely would be conflict of interest. But hiba, you had an interesting question or you were saying, um, what about if one person is interested but the other is not? So, again, if you're not married and you're looking and you're interested in working on your marriage and premarriage counseling, and the other partner is not, that's a very important consideration to keep in mind because I'll tell you, that does not look good. I was recently working with a couple similar to that. The why the bride was insisting, no, please, please, please, you know, just take us on. And I wasn't taking clients on at that moment, so I said, Okay, you know what? She had been, she insisted and she said, I only because I normally what I'll do is I'll make referrals to other people. And she insisted that she wanted to work with me. I said, Okay, fine, let me see where I can do find time in the schedule. Now, when they came into counseling, you could tell, I mean, my assumption is that you're coming into pre-marriage counseling because you both want to be there, but you could clearly tell that the groom was not interested. He was dragging his feet, and what I do is I give you a lot of tools to work on outside of the sessions that you do separately, and then you come back in and we discuss them. And his answers were very surface level, like there was no depth, and there was no self-reflection. It was as though it was, let me just get it done, get it over with. And for me, that was a very big red flag because you're not your values, they are not the same. One person values marriage education, learning, skill building, and the other person is essentially just checked out from the process. That's very telling. So I did bring this up with the bride. I did tell her, I mentioned this to her. I said, there seems to be a huge disconnect between the two of you. Was he willing to come to premarriage counseling? And then she discloses that he was not. That he was not interested. He was, she kind of had to drag him, she kind of had to force him in. And I can tell you that the results are not gonna be there if you're forcing somebody. You can't force somebody into therapy. And subhanallah, believe it or not, you know, they started premarriage counseling, they did about three sessions and uh abandoned it because obviously the guy was not interested. So he wasn't, he was just making it difficult to set up a time. And you know, you kind of see the disinterest and not completing the uh modules that we're working on. And then subhanAllah, they abandoned counseling, they still got married, and she called me four months into their marriage, like very early, maybe three or four months into their marriage, and she said it just wasn't working, and they were really having a she was having a lot of problems with him, and she was really unhappy, and there was a lot of issues that had arised within the relationship that early on. And so, with you know, you want to be sensitive because obviously you don't want to say to the girl, I told you so, um, because that's not the right thing to say to come on. But at the end of the day, it's heartbreaking because you you saw that train wreck, like you saw it coming, you knew this was gonna happen, and you still yet you still chose to pursue the person, you still chose to get married, and you know, you can run, but you cannot hide, it will catch up with you.

SPEAKER_01:

Because that brings up a good point that and and I like you mentioned this earlier on, which is you don't necessarily tell people not to move forward, but you give them the the tools for them to make the decision on their own. But at some point, like after they get past the compatibility counseling, and then they're moving on through the steps. I do you feel like, all right, I just gotta be blunt with you guys. I don't think you guys should move forward. This just doesn't look like a good decision. Do you feel like you just have to do that?

SPEAKER_00:

I I I try uh I try to do my best to be as honest and forthcoming with their situation and helping them understand what they're getting into. But my, I mean, you know, in counseling and therapy, they're not my opinion, doesn't matter what I think of them, what I feel about them. That's not at the heart of my work. It's how they feel and how they think. And it's really important for a therapist to be able to empower their client in making good decisions for themselves, to be able to look at everything that is at stake, to be able to, you know, challenge their own thinking, to question themselves, and to really reflect deeply and come up with the right answer. So, no Zaid, I cannot say to somebody, don't do this. It's like you're walking into a death trap here. I I can't uh I can't say that. But alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah, what I will tell you is that when you are in therapy and you're part of that process, your heart is primed and your mind is primed and open to facing the challenging questions, and people do end up coming to good conclusions for themselves. Like, you know, don't we gotta give everybody credit, man, mashallah? Everybody is very insightful, everybody's an expert in their own life, so we really have to trust and lean in on that that people will eventually come to the right decision. But let's not forget, at the end of the day, qadr is a very big thing. If it is written for you, it will be. And alhamdulillah, we can try to, you know, learn to navigate our relationships, but that you know, how getting pre-marriage counseling does not mean that you're immune from divorce. That doesn't mean that divorce is off the table now that you've gotten pre-marriage counseling. A lot of it about premarriage counseling is also in its application. How are you applying the skills and the tools that you learn? How consistent are you being with them? Because ultimately that's what's gonna really matter in your marriage. You know, it's just not about some glossy five-week course that you took that's gonna make you feel like you're the perfect couple. It's actually year two, year three, year four, year five. Like I mean, where you guys are right now as well. The consistency in application of all the tools that I talked about, that's what's gonna really enhance the quality of your relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

You you make uh counseling honestly feel and sound so cool. Like I listened to you and I'm like, I want to book a session with you, honestly, seriously.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's what it should be. It shouldn't be about uh, you know, it shouldn't stress people out. I actually have a lot of people who come into therapy like really stressed out because they don't know what to expect, but it's actually very different. I mean, I'm hoping that inshallah it's a positive experience of just growth and development and just really helping you, you know, like for example, if you're living here, I get your life up here. And then the beautiful thing is, hiba, if you belong to a loving, secure, safe relationship, then it allows you to contribute outside to other people, to your community, to the Ummah at large. It allows you to really do more, to give more, and to be more, you know, like to do be able to do more in your Islam, to be able to be uh able to do more for your family, for your children. Because when couples are just at this, like at this base level, they're just fighting with each other and they're just arguing and they're just trying to survive, then there's no thriving. But when I can teach them to survive in a connected, more quality way, that opens up your emotional, mental, physical space to do so much more. And then that's the people that you'll see that are giving back into the community and people who are successful and you know, leading these content lives, not to say that successful people all have good marriages, but I'm just saying that you know, internal contentment will allow you then that freedom to go out there and be able to do more.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, didn't even think about that. But um, do you have couples or have you had couples uh who came to premarital counseling and after a few sessions they actually decided that they are not a good fit for each other?

SPEAKER_00:

All the time. All the time. Um yeah, so uh I'll tell you what happens. So there's a lot of apps out there right now for matchmaking, some halal, some not so halal. So couples will meet each other, but then they are like, okay, I don't want to get emotionally invested unless this is the one. Because you know, when you're swiping on an app, it's really hard to get to know that person or to really understand that person. There's a lot of great surface level information. I mean, I'm not against the apps, to be honest. I feel like it filters a lot. But what happens once you match on the apps? What happens next? Now, do you just start dating? Do you just start going out for dinners? And do you, you know, like what's what's next after you've matched? So what happens is that a lot of couples, after they match on the apps, will come for compatibility counseling. And so it's in a halal environment. It is with purpose of marriage, it's very uh it's very structured, it's very organized, and it's very meaningful. And so couples will come in and they'll have these conversations, and then it'll allow them to make a better, more informed decision. And sometimes I've had couples who've said, you know, I mean, I appreciate the uh the experience that I've had getting to know you, but I really feel like our values are not in alignment, or I feel like I don't think I can handle the fears that you have. I feel like my fears will clash with yours, or I feel like I can't live with somebody who has these certain weaknesses, or so on and so forth. So it's just think of it like this, just making a more informed decision. And the beautiful thing is it's not personal. It's not about, you know, oh, I don't like your personality, or you're not this, you're not that. They really understand that the process is very genuine, and they understand that the process is very, it's it's meant for clarity, and it's not, it's not about a personal attack or it's not criticism. So I've had a lot of people walk away from compatibility counseling, alhamdulillah, very content and say, you know what? I'm glad that you know I found out what I did because I know I can't take this on. You know, I've had a I had a um young woman in therapy, and the guy, uh the her uh fiance or her person that she was looking to get married to said that he had uh his trigger response was fight. And then I kind of go into a deeper, so it's not just a surface level, okay, well, what does fight look like and so on and so forth? So as he was speaking, she was literally like, you could see the face change, you could see her face changing. And so I looked at her and I said, What's going on? And she said, He sounds just like my father. And I don't have a good relationship with my dad. My dad was abusive, and he made, you know, I just I really struggled with my relationship with him. And as I'm listening to this guy speaking, he this is exactly what my dad is like, and so she doesn't want to get into a lifetime of being re-traumatized and re-triggered, and she needs somebody who is more regulated or does not have anger-related issues or expressive anger. It's okay for her to look at that situation and say, I don't think I can, like, this is gonna constantly try to trigger my past trauma. And so, alhamdulillah, again, as I said, when it's in a contained professional environment, it's not personal, it's just a very realistic way to say, you know what, we matched on the app, we didn't match up in real life. Alhamdulillah, I wish you all the best. And, you know, what I do at the end of it, if they if the couple does decide that they do not want to continue their relationship, I always tell them to do this exercise in therapy, like in front of me, where they thank the person for all the knowledge and the information and the learning and the you know the process and tell the tell the person, you know, what they learned and what they appreciate about this person. So it's not like, oh, you are horrible and I don't want to marry you. It's just that you know what, I really learned that uh there's certain things that really bring up my own past trauma that I should probably work on. But I really appreciate you being honest with me and I wish you all the best in your journey and your endeavor. Now, interesting flip side to this coin is that the person who is struggling with certain issues now says, wait a minute, before getting married, I should probably learn to self-regulate.

SPEAKER_02:

Subhanallah. Wow. Have you had situations where the relationship was way more advanced? Like, I don't know, they were they already booked the whole, the wedding was gonna happen in a month or whatever. And then through counseling, they ended up ended things.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think I've had one of those, no. I I don't think so. And so also I should say that it's not a back-to-back-to-back, like uh pre-marriage or early marriage counseling. It's uh you can actually, first of all, you can learn these tools at any time. You could be married for 10 years and you can still learn tools to improve your marriage. But when a couple comes to me, they will do some sessions like the self-reflection, healthy attachment. They'll do some sessions before and then we'll do some sessions after. I actually don't see them during um the actual wedding period unless there is some kind of crisis or emergency, because really I just want them to go and enjoy their wedding. I I don't want to need them in therapy trying to learn this and learn that. I I give them lots of time. Go enjoy your wedding. Call me if you guys are having any kind of issues that are wedding related or you know, relationship related. But other than that, no, for sure. Like I have never seen or I have actually never had that experience where the couple decided to call it off at the last minute. No, that that hasn't happened.

SPEAKER_02:

Alhamdulillah, inshallah, you never have this experience. You know, Zayd, I'm listening and I'm thinking that we should maybe add a section question on our registration form. Are you open to premarital counseling?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So we have, of course, uh an intake form. And uh one of the questions is what are your top three Nanharam deal breakers? And I don't remember in our four years of matchmaking ever coming across somebody who said a deal breaker is someone who's not opening open to counseling, which is interesting. Like people don't think about it, or what exactly?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think people would overtly say it like that, but I think if you dig deeper, there might be uh in some cases maybe some aversion to it.

SPEAKER_02:

Could be. But yeah, we should definitely add this section.

SPEAKER_01:

For sure, for sure. Um I want to talk a little bit about the topic of intimacy, which is you know, a lot of Muslims come into marriage with zero knowledge or unrealistic expectations. So, how does premarital counseling handle this without making people uncomfortable? And how far do you take these conversations?

SPEAKER_02:

And if I may add to it, do you notice that men and women come with different expectations uh in regards to uh intimacy discussion?

SPEAKER_00:

So, I mean, okay, just to understand that by the time intimacy comes up, the clients have been with me for long enough that there is a comfort between us to have that conversation. But I am very uh so we have to keep in mind that there has to be Hayah, right? Like you have to sit there and you have to discuss this topic very carefully, very cautiously. So, what I normally like to do is I'll sit with the female, uh, like I'll sit with the white the bride to be, and I'll give her a list of questions that she and the partner can potentially discuss and talk about, and then come back to me if they have any questions or if they have any concerns. I will sometimes do a one-on-one with the uh with the men as well, but in general, what the education part is something that is uh not individually related to them, but just overarchingly, you know, like what are the expectations in Islam and how intimacy doesn't really start in the bedroom, but it starts outside the bedroom and how we have to make sure that we are creating not just physical intimacy, but emotional intimacy. And then I'll I will do some guided questions for them. Now we're not just talking about what's happening in the bedroom, we're actually talking about creating that emotional uh closeness, that emotional safety. We're talking about earlier on when I talk about healthy attachment and we're doing things like love languages, we're actually learning about each other as to how we respond to love, what puts us off, what puts us in the mood. So a lot of those conversations are already leading up to intimacy. And then, alhamdulillah, when we get to that intimacy portion, there I handle it in various different components. One, as I said, is just educating the couple on certain um, I would say, I don't want to use the word ground rules, but like uh just the basics of intimacy in a marriage. And then we'll I'll have that private conversation with the bride, and I'll encourage her to have some conversation with her potential partner. Come back to me if you have more questions or if you want to discuss it further. And if needed, I will sit with the uh the groom and I will have a conversation with him if he needs to have certain questions addressed or answered.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, and uh what about my part of the question?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, sorry, I'm gonna have to repeat that.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh so I asked, do you notice uh that men and women come with different uh expectations in terms of intimacy?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my goodness. Okay, I have so many young men say I have a very high sex drive.

SPEAKER_01:

They just come out and say that?

SPEAKER_00:

How do they know they've never been married? A lot, yeah. A lot. Well, I mean, you know, that's the reason why they have a really high sex drive is because they haven't been married. So their expectation in their head around intimacy is uh very different than what their reality might actually look like. Now, women are generally a little bit more uncertain. It's just the way that we are physiologically designed that it's really hard to gauge. But I will say that women are very open to experimenting, like specifically this generation that's now getting married, they're very open to experimenting with the conversation, they're very open to asking questions, they're very open to saying, okay, well, what does this mean? You know, how do we pursue a healthy intimacy or intimate life without especially early on? Like, how do we create that? And again, as I said, when I do speak to the woman, I do explain a lot of things to her, especially physical barriers that might be a problem in early stages, and how you can overcome those barriers and how you can make intimacy a fun experience. Um, a lot of the girls these days I'm hearing of is a condition by the name of vaginismus, which makes penetration very difficult and creates a very, very complicated relationship around intimacy. But there is their options for pelvic floor therapy, there's options for treatment. So, again, just to say that you can normalize challenges in intimacy as well, and then be able to work around them. Now, intimacy is a subject that I don't necessarily broach before wedding. Um, it might be something that there might be in their early stages of marriage. They might be, uh you know how I said that I'll give you a big break in the middle while you're getting married? Intimacy is something that we might talk about later on. We will touch upon a bit before. How do you feel going into the marriage? Are there any questions? But again, as I said, Therapy is an ongoing conversation, and not everybody fits into this cookie-cutter approach of everybody's story is going to look the same. The initial conversation I have around intimacy is yes, a little bit more cookie-cutter, like it, it's like one size fits all, but then later on, individual issues around you know, whether it's any kind of uh physical dysfunction, discomfort, anything, that is something that's much more private and then will happen after they are uh you know living together.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Do you advise your clients to seek uh like Islamic sex education prior to marriage?

SPEAKER_00:

It's honestly it's based on whatever everybody's comfortable with. I'm gonna stick to what I said earlier. All education is good for you. You know, go out there. Sorry, beneficial knowledge. There's some education out there that's not beneficial, but like beneficial knowledge, it's good for you. Islamic sex education is very important because a lot of the times people are getting married without any idea about what to expect on their wedding night or what to expect in terms of what their own uh limitations are, or what they're allowed and what they're not allowed. So, alhamdulillah, you know, if you don't have a support system in terms of family or an older sibling that is going to be helping you navigate intimacy in your marriage, this is a beautiful way to just learn. Now, even if you have a supportive mom or you're close to your sister or your brother, whatever, right? Like if and both genders are getting some information, it's still wonderful to attend this class because it helps you understand the parameters around what you're getting into. Now, as long as alhamdulillah it is from a credible source, it is definitely beneficial, it's helpful. If you don't learn anything, even then it's beneficial for you.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. We are great advocates, honestly, because um, like some people, like especially females, they don't know their own body. Like the the physiology of their own body, they don't know it. And um, yeah, we are great advocates uh for that. Uh what is one topic? If there is like just one topic you recommend uh people to discuss before marriage, what would that be? Oh, that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00:

What's one topic that I encourage them to discuss? I I would feel like conflict resolution is the one thing that I feel like if you're not gonna learn anything else, because maybe other stuff will just fall into place magically. But if there's one thing, people really need to learn conflict resolution. They need to understand how do we put out the fire once something happens in our marriage. And then by you know, one of the bigger parts of conflict resolution is self-regulation. So just knowing how to bring your best self into that situation and then learning to navigate around problems because you know, really a conflict in a relationship decides the direction of the marriage. If you have a series of unresolved conflict, the burden of that marriage is gonna weigh very heavy on you and it's not you're gonna feel suffocated and trapped in it. But if you start resolving conflict in a healthy way, that deepens your connection with the person, it builds reliance and it builds trust. So if there was that one conversation that I think is absolutely must-have, it is uh it's conflict resolution.

SPEAKER_02:

Beautiful, beautiful. Now, if somebody wants to work with you, how can they connect with you?

SPEAKER_00:

The best way to find me is on Instagram. Uh, my handle is very simple. It's my first and last name at Hina Mirza. Um, I am wonderful at responding, and maybe not right away, but you'll hear from me. I don't ignore my messages. I do get to all of them, alhamdulillah. And uh it's the best way to get connected with me. Now, I most of the time I'm not taking new clients because just the load is full, but I am looking into doing some uh premarriage courses, like I was telling you how just covering the modules and getting a chance, giving up uh people a chance to just learn the modules collectively, and then in that those modules, there's takeaways where they do some self-reflections, then they bring them back. So I'm trying to design something where we can mass produce this and more people can benefit out of it. So look out on my Instagram page for classes and courses and retreats and things that I'm posting. But uh the best way to find me is on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02:

Awesome, inshallah. We will link that. To be honest, um, when we were like preparing for the episode and stuff, we were worried like the topic, it might seem a little bit boring, like not exciting, but the way like you discuss the topic, uh you created excitement. I feel excited right now about not premarital right now, it's marital uh counseling. But uh yeah, you heard guys, premarital counseling, it's not a luxury, it's it's a must. We made the mistake of not uh taking that seriously, so please don't uh make the same mistake we did. Thank you so much uh for your time, for your energy and your knowledge. And uh yeah, Jazakum La Akhar. Thank you, our beautiful listeners, and inshallah we'll see you in the next one. Assalamu alaikum. For having me. As salamu alaykum.