Diary of a Matchmaker

Behind Closed Doors: Single Muslims and Porn w/ Dr. Fahad Khan

• Halal Match • Episode 81

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Let’s be real, porn is everywhere. And yes, Muslims are watching it too, way more than anyone admits. In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Fahad Khan, a clinical psychologist and an expert in Islamic psychology. We talk about why so many singles fall into it, how hard it’s become to get married, and how that mix messes with the mind, the heart, and even real attraction.

Whether you’ve struggled with it or you’re worried the person you’re talking to might be, this episode peels back the silence with an honest look at what’s happening and what it means for all of us trying to build real connections in a post-modern world.

For help and support visit Kahlil Centre.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


SPEAKER_02:

Asalamu alaikum. I'm Hibb.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm Zaid.

SPEAKER_02:

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_00:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's dive in. Welcome to another episode. So when I moved to Chicago from the UK, I was around the age of eight. And when I first moved, one of the first things that my mom started looking for was uh an Islamic school and uh and a local masjid. And uh when we found one, one of the first things I came across was a flyer of somebody teaching Qur'an class. So instantly my mom signed me up and I enrolled in this Quran class, and uh, and the Imam there at the time was I think he had just started teaching Quran there, and I think he was just hired there as the Imam. And um I was one of the first students, and I was with him for so long. Uh alhamdulillah, he carried me all the way from the Arabic alphabet to memorizing some chapters from the Quran. But I also remember somebody who else who was in that class too that was much older. I was also doing hips at the time, and I found out that that was actually my Quran's teacher's son. And uh lo and behold, that person with us today is our guest, Dr. Fahad Khan. Um, many years later, now it turns out he's he's a guest on our podcast. So we're honored to have him. So as salamu alaikum.

SPEAKER_01:

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Alhamdulillah, alhamdulillah. We're excited about this conversation. It's a hot topic, uh, but we're really excited to dive in. So, a quick background uh Dr. Fahad Khan is an academic researcher, uh clinical psychologist specializing in the integration of faith and mental wellness through the field of Islamic psychology. His professional work is dedicated to advancing mental health within Muslim communities. He has served uh as the deputy director at the Khalil Center, the largest provider of Muslim mental health services in the West, where he supervised clinical and research work. His background also includes uh teaching at various academic institutions in the United States. He is a fellow of the International Association of Islamic Psychology and actively contributes to the field by serving on the editorial boards of several peer-reviewed journals.

SPEAKER_02:

Mashallah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the topic itself, well, let's talk about the searching for a spouse. We know, you know, especially here in the West, I don't know what the situation is much like in the Middle East, but in the West, the search has become more and more difficult uh over the years, trying to find a spouse. And I feel it's just my assumption that as a result, pornography has also risen in the Muslim community. Do you feel like there is a correlation there there? Or is that and is this problem being discussed in Muslim circles?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so um salah alhamdulillah, again. Uh I just want to um I think it's important to preface the issue here. The issue is is more complex and probably larger than just pornography or issue of getting married. Because um, you know, like you were saying, it's it has become difficult to get married, which contributes to pornography consumption, but pornography consumption also contributes to difficulties in getting married or even desire to get married. Um I think the world that we've we kind of live in now as compared to the world before, there are certain things that have changed, certain factors that um contribute to this, all of these issues that we're we're just uh addressing right now, including these two especially. Um so for example, we are uh we're living in a very materialistic, consumeristic world where fulfilling your desires, um, you know, subjective feelings, um, you know, it's called the post-truth era because everyone has their own truth. Um, you know, this postmodern world where like, you know, there are no clear objective definitions anymore. Everyone has their own definition, right? What's healthy, what's unhealthy, what's good, what's bad, you know, my good can be your bad, and and vice versa. Uh, this is obviously against uh the values of Islam, but what that has done, or one of the byproducts of this uh world that we live in is that um, you know, we're just used to uh pleasing, to making ourselves happy, whatever that takes, right? And so um uh now this has to do with um pornography, because uh uh you know pornography consumption has to do with obviously uh pleasure and and dopamine release, and and I think we'll probably talk about it a little bit later. But on the other hand, marriage um is difficult. Marriage requires work. I mean, you've been married for a while, I've been married for uh 16 years now. So we know that it's you know it's not easy, and there are times in our relationship where things get very challenging. So I think that's where the issue uh uh comes up is that uh in this day and age, people don't want to put in the effort. So that also leads to people not wanting to get married. And pornography becomes this way to kind of deal with um the loneliness the person might feel, the sadness they might feel, uh just to get some quick uh dopamine fix that they need. Uh we don't talk about it because I think for for many reasons. Uh one, primarily because it's a it's a personal issue, right? It's a private matter. Uh like when we do marital counseling with Muslims, um, you know, it's difficult to discuss intimacy issues, which is a very big very huge contributor to marital problems. But why? Because it's a personal matter, like it's difficult. Not that we shouldn't talk about it, but I think that's a that's a one reason why we don't talk about it. And the other is because it brings a lot of shame to people. Um, you know, it's easier for someone to talk about their um smoking cigarettes, for example, than like pornography addiction, right? Yeah. Um so that's probably why we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. How how common is pornography consumption in the Muslim uh community?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think if we define it, like um if we're talking about uh looking at pornography, which almost has become a norm. So any TV show, every TV show pretty much, uh things on like uh social media, TikTok, I mean, there's pornographic material there, right? Because again, like we're looking at from the lens of uh Muslims, right? For us, it's not just like people who don't who are not wearing clothes or who are engaged in sexual acts. I mean, like anything that's beyond what we're allowed to look at, like it becomes an area of haram for us. And there's a reason because Islam has rules that are supposed to prevent people from getting to the the bigger sins here, right? In this case, Zina. So um anything beyond, like I said, you know, if I'm looking at a photo of a woman, even with any kind of uh like lustful um, you know, thoughts or or uh underlying drives, then I think that that becomes a problem. So I think everyone engages in that, probably on a regular daily basis, multiple times a day. Then you have like pornography that's uh becomes part of TV shows. Like, you know, the most popular uh TV shows in the in the last like 15 years was Game of Thrones, right? So it had heavy pornographic material. That's one of the reasons why I didn't like the show, uh, violence and pornography. It almost normalized it, right? So um, and then people justify like, oh, this is why, and you know, it's a good show, whatever the reason might be. So we've become um uh desensitized to even that type of material. And then we have people who uh deliberately, intentionally, and that those are the people that you're probably referring more to. They go in and they talk about, they look at pornography, or they spend hours upon hours. So in our clinical work, I think nearly everyone, I mean, I would say like a vast majority, like I would say at least if I don't have the exact numbers, but I would say probably 60 to 70 percent of people do look at pornography intentionally. Um, obviously the number is high with uh certain population, right? So like people who are depressed, people who are more lonely, the younger ones uh, you know, who may um uh have uh more exposure to things that kind of drives them to do that.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, so and if we want to exclusive exclusively talk about addiction, porn addiction, are there like any studies about um how common it is in the Muslim community?

SPEAKER_01:

Um not that I'm aware of, but I I I can tell you it's pretty common. I think it is common. Um and um and the other thing again, it's uh we have to recognize that uh having because we all of us have some form of addictions, right? So like uh yes, pornography is probably worse than someone who's addicted to social media, right? Just consumption or or just having your phone. Like phone has a there's addiction to that as well. Some people are addiction to drinking coffee, right? Like there's different forms of addiction. I think at the core level, if we look at our uh human psyche and what makes us human, every addiction is bad because you're feeding the nafs. But obviously, pornography has other repercussions as well. So, you know, I don't want to normalize it uh pornography, but I also want to uh recognize that addictions in general are bad for us as humans and as those who are supposed to be the representatives of Allah on this earth.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I was just telling Zaid before the interview that like a thought that goes into any single woman's mind when she's searching, and even men, but I think more for women, is is the person I'm talking to addicted to porn? How can I tell? Like, are there red flags? Are there like uh signs to look for?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean the thing is um I think uh um I mean you you do this for professionally, like for a living. When you're searching for um someone to get married to, this is a process that requires a lot of seriousness and maturity, right? This isn't like dating. Like in I think we've kind of uh um uh I would say confused, you know, um uh like marriage or searching for a spouse to dating. Because in dating, in an American culture or Western culture, you're just kind of fooling around. You just have someone and you know, like okay, maybe they make you feel good and you enjoy each other's company, and that's it. Like there's no commitment there. It's not, you know, with with uh like this commitment you have to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, right? And so when we look at when we search for a potential marital uh uh you know spouse, an individual that we're we want to commit to, that's a very serious process. So as part of the conversation, I think there has to be conversation about pornography, right? Um now a lot of people come to me and ask me like if someone is addicted to pornography or looks at pornography, not even addicted to because addiction requires like some level of commitment and you know if you can't stay away from it. Um and it's not easy to determine that uh with pornography. But if they look at pornography, what should I do? Should I marry them or not? My answer usually is um that you have to find out what they're doing about it, right? So if someone is, for example, look, let's look at someone who's struggling with weight, right? They're overeating or they don't, you know, can't lose weight. If they're going to the gym every week, they're trying, but they're still maybe struggling every day. That's a better person than someone who just says, I don't care, you know, whatever, right? That mindset is unhealthy, I'm mindset. So someone who uh looks at pornography, uh knows that it's haram, doesn't like it, works on it, constantly is is in the process and in this uh, you know, and the doing this jihad of their nafs, uh, that person is a very noble individual in my eyes, even though they're committing that sin every single day. But if someone is like, so what? You know, what's the big deal? It's the same thing with Game of Thrones. If people were like, so what's the big deal? You know, it's a TV show, it's a fun, and it's it. Well, no, it's not that. Like, you have to take it seriously. That's a very like serious offense and issue. So if someone has that kind of mindset, that's more dangerous than someone who looks at it but at you know still works on themselves.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I feel like this um whether it's an addiction or somebody who's just watching it, um, it's one of those subtle things that you can't really determine because to an extent, it doesn't really, or maybe I could be wrong about this, it doesn't impact your way to function in society, right? Like people have jobs and and they go about their normal lives, but it's one of those things where it's just it's hidden. And um I come across stories all the time where sometimes like the wife would find out because she would just randomly uh go through her husband's search browser or something like that, right? So it's it's really hard to determine whether you're going through the courting phase or even if you're married, um, to tell is this person consuming porn? Are they not? So aside from just asking questions, are there other ways to kind of uncover this or determine that?

SPEAKER_01:

No, like you said, it's really hard because it's it's oftentimes something even the individual is engaging in. Um, because if you think about it, like some of the addictions, for example, if someone is addicted to using drugs, for example, right? Um, they'll uh, you know, like if they're smoking marijuana, they'll smoke marijuana in their car, they'll smoke marijuana in their house, in their room, in the garage, wherever. But if someone is is uh addicted to pornography, oftentimes they are doing it in closed rooms, in dark places, because there's a sense of shame. They're even hiding it from themselves because of the immense amount of shame that it brings to these individuals, the guilt that they feel. So it's not something that uh people are usually aware. So this the symptoms are not really, you can't look at someone and say, oh, that person is a determined to you know pornography. That's that's not easy to determine. You might look at someone who uh, you know, is high and they can tell, oh, this person is like looks like he's high the way he's talking, or you know, looking at uh maybe their pupils are constricted, so they might they might be on stimulants or something, you can kind of see some signs and symptoms, but pornography is not really visible, you know, it's not something you can determine. That's why the conversation is really important, and that's why the maturity has to be there too. Because let's let's face it, you know, uh I we all know this is a common problem. If a person isn't ready to admit, at least say, hey, I do struggle with it, that I mean no one's gonna outright come and say I have an addiction to it, but if you're having the conversation and they say, Yes, I struggle with it, and I am working on it, I need to work on it, you know, I think that shows sign of maturity, right? So if the person doesn't say it, if if if anyone listening to this, watching this, is struggling with pornography, if you can't express the problem to someone that you're about to marry, then there's a there's a bigger issue here. Then you don't have the maturity to own, you know, because eventually they'll find out. I mean, this is something that you can't keep hidden for long, especially if you're living with someone 24 hours a day.

SPEAKER_00:

It makes sense. I mean, the the problem is that sometimes the attitude towards this problem is that I'll stop once I get married. And from your experience, does marriage actually solve the problem, or can it make it worse? And um and how how is that situation dealt with?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so um the thing is um okay, just a little just kind of taking a step back. Whenever we take some um factor, some event, something into consideration, there are things that are associated with it, uh factors that may contribute to it, and there are things that have a direct relationship with it, right? So for example, just because someone is single doesn't mean they're going to be looking at pornography or they have the justification to do so. However, being a single is a factor, right? Because they don't have a halal way to uh, you know, be intimate with someone. And after they've reached the the age of maturity, they obviously there's a physiological drive that's there, right? So that does contribute to um this problem of pornography. Similarly, I uh just because someone is has pornography addiction doesn't mean they should get married, and that's going to be the solution to it, but it can be a factor that helps them. Do you see what I'm saying? So, you know, certainly like I've, you know, when I work with individuals who um had pornography addiction and they were married, or they got married and their spouse found out, um, you know, we we kind of talked about what role does intimacy play? Having a spouse on board saying that, you know what, uh, I this person's married to me. It's their huck, you know, to have intimacy with me. And uh perhaps they're struggling. And if they have certain times that they have urges and I can make myself available, I mean, there's nothing wrong with it. I think people when when people talk about this, they have this thing about, oh, well, it's not my problem. No, no, when you get married, it's our problem. Whether you like it or not, I mean, it it you it is going to affect you, right? You can you can try to back out of it, but there's no way out of it. So if you say like it's our problem, let's see what we can do as a team. Okay, what can I do for my wife or my husband who's struggling with this if I can make myself available? I've seen those people recover better. They have a much healthier relationship, they're able to overcome this issue because they have their spouse that's on board. So I'm saying that because being married can be helpful, but that doesn't mean that you know, if you if it's a severe problem, you're struggling with it, you have no control over it, that you think uh when you get married that it's gonna go away. That doesn't usually happen.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm glad you mentioned when you said, what can I do for my husband? What can I do for my wife? Now, when we think about pornography addiction, we immediately think of men, but I'm sure it also affects women. But does it affect women differently than men or just the same pattern?

SPEAKER_01:

So on the on a uh like a broader level, any addiction, especially pornography addiction in this case, affects the the reward pathway in your brain, right? Because you get this like hit of dopamine. Now that has a like larger effect on your life in general. For example, people become more impulsive. You know, the ability to think about consequences, postpone, um, you know, delay gratification, right? These are issues that that come about as the as a result of pornography. That um uh impulsive behavior, uh, because people can't control themselves, also leads to emotional problems, right? They get angered easily, frustrated easily, for example. They can't find things pleasurable in life, right? Things that normally otherwise they enjoyed or normal people would enjoy, people who don't have any kind of addictions. For these individuals, their brain is so used to getting that hit. I mean, imagine if you're used to eating like uh good food every day, right? You're eating restaurant style food, then you don't like your home cooked food, right? Like your mom's doll or or whatever beans don't, they don't they don't give you that same uh kick because that's how it is, right? Uh but normal people, that's not normal, right? Most people would be eating home every day or most of the days, and maybe occasionally you might eat out, right? Uh indulge. So it this the system is kind of like hijacked in that manner. So that affects both men and women, right? It's I don't think if there's any like difference when it comes to those types of effects. Um uh and and uh the other thing with pornography is that uh it's affects on intimacy. So if you're married, for example, or when you do get married, the ideas that you have about intimacy, the things that would uh otherwise be uh normal for individuals to feel pleasure from, you no longer feel that pleasure. Uh, right. So that again, your your sensitivity or your need for that dopamine or whatever it is that you know it get it increases, so it ends up affecting your your physical intimacy with your spouse.

SPEAKER_02:

SubhanAllah, like if you want to think about it like Islamically from like an Islamic point of view, it's like when you sought something that's against uh Allah's command, then Allah robbed you the ability to enjoy what was like permissible and what's halal. Is is this right?

SPEAKER_01:

Or my yeah I mean, okay, if we look at like um the you know, let's look at human ontologies, human beings, who we are, right, as human beings. So um we exist in this dunya. As part of our existence in this dunya, we have um, for the lack of better words, animalistic qualities to us, right? So we have the need for sleeping, eating, you know, pleasure, there's aggression in us, right? Um so Imam Ghazali will talk about like the four categories of qualities, uh characteristics that people have. So there's like angelic qualities, there's satanic qualities, and then there's animalistic qualities. Uh, you know, one of those animals that engage in like grazing and eating, sleeping, you know, sexual desire. Then there's aggressive animals, right? Who are trying to overcome lions and you know, tigers, things like that. So all that exists as part of who we are in this dunya, right? And that's where shaitan comes in and knows these weaknesses and tempts us, right, with a lot of different things. Um, so part of being a human, part of being a Muslim, is that we recognize that. Like I live in this dunya, I have these struggles, these struggles will always be there. This is part of who I am. That's why when we discuss the nafs, we know that the nafs uh uh, you know, persons can have control over their nafs, but it it is not something you maintain forever. Your nafs can change uh, you know, sometimes multiple times a day or moment to moment. One moment you have full control, the other moment you have lost your control. There's a story of uh like a Sufi Sheikh who was walking uh and then he saw someone on the street, someone who was engaged in sinning. I think he was maybe drinking or something, and you know, and he has this dialogue with him, and the person says to the sheikh, he says, you know, if um can I be like you, right? And like meaning you're so uh honor honored and and this is a righteous individual who's a sheikh, and he says, Yes, in the blink of an eye, if Allah wills it, right? And then he says, Well, can you be like me? And he said, Yes, if Allah wills in the blink of an eye, right? Meaning our our nafs can change moment to moment, right? We can go from being the most pious to being a sinner and then back to the being being pious again. So that's how we are created. That's that's part of our existence, and part of our jihad, and this is what I mentioned earlier, jihad, this is called the great jihad, right? This is more uh difficult than the physical jihad that uh you know that the people engage in, is that we we have that self-control and we're able to uh monitor and tame our nafs and to use it for them, uh, for things that are beneficial, things that are righteous. Um, and that's fulfilling our destiny and that's fulfilling our oath with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was going to say that, you know, of course, not everybody is at the stage where they're ready to get married and to channel their natural desires. And so sometimes the attitude that comes into mind is uh, well, it's a lesser of the two evils. At least I'm not committing Zina, right? And uh it's better I do this than I go commit zina. What's what's your response to that? And and about how to probably reframe somebody's mindset around that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we in psychology we call that rationalization, right? So um the the the thing we have to recognize is that um, you know, for example, when the Quran is mentioning zina, uh it says la takhrabu zina, right? Don't even come near Zina, right? Because uh the idea is not don't commit zinna. Obviously, anyone with their even people who are not Muslim will agree that zina is bad, right? Especially within the context of marriage, right? Um, you know, cheating on your spouse is bad, uh having an affair with someone is bad. Um, but the the the thing is that usually people don't go from being righteous and being clean to then committing zina. That that's there's a lot of steps that are in between, right? We know the famous story of the person in Bani Israel who ended up committing Zina, then you know, there's a there's a whole hadith about this. So um the it's subtle ways that we move closer and closer and closer to zina until then it happens. And this is is on that path, basically, right? So when you when you look at pornography, you're going down the path. Imagine, for example, like uh, you know, I mean, growing up, I don't know how children uh how they are doing it now, it's really tough for them. But when we were growing up, for us, uh pornography access was really like not available, like it wasn't there. Like I grew up in Pakistan, there was no pornography that I'm aware of that I could access immediately, right? Even like uh things in the market and stuff, none of nothing, none of this is available. Then when I moved to America, when the internet became more popular, then internet was like a way to you know get that access. Um so uh uh for me growing up, like even watching people hold hand or kiss was like, oh my god, this is shameful, right? So the we have this fitrah inside of us that recognizes something that is just not like healthy. This it there's some level of disgust in it, like public affection, for example. Um, uh, you know, looking at someone who's supposed to be covered naked, right? Like there's something about it that just feels wrong. So I'm saying if it goes against the fitra, it shouldn't be done. Even if if you're thinking, okay, it's lesser of the two evil or whatever, you know, you're it's preventing you from that. Now, what the other thing that happens is if you keep doing it, uh if you keep justifying it, this is where Shaitan is like kind of like training you, then that becomes a norm. Then moving one step forward isn't going to be, you might say, okay, well, at least I'm not committing zina, but hey, I'm talking to a woman, hey, at least I'm not committing zina, I'm just hanging out with her. You know, like it just starts getting closer and closer to the ultimate thing until that happens, and then, you know, um, unfortunately, it's it's hard to come back from that.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, what kind of unrealistic expectations does uh porn addiction create in terms of like pleasure, intimacy, bodies, and how can that show up in marriage uh later?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, I think the issue is that uh not just uh like intimacy, but even relationships that we see in movies, in the media, are just kind of like um uh portrayed in a way that's unrealistic, right? Um even like social media, we see that um there are a lot of couples who have like these TikTok accounts, and then you think that they're doing so great, and then you find out that people are getting divorced. Um, and so same with intimacy, right? The way it's portrayed, um it's just a show, like in in pornography. They're putting on a show for entertainment purpose, um, and it's it's far from the reality. I think any person who's married, who's have been intimate, can tell uh anyone like that this is not like uh a secret that this is the intimacy isn't as pleasurable as it's shown in pornography. So I think that's the part that really messes it up. The other thing is intimacy, physical intimacy is one way that you feel connected with your spouse. That's a very important way. It's a very basic physiological way, right? Like uh it's a need that everyone has and it gets fulfilled by your spouse. So you feel this kind of like attach, closeness, attachment with your spouse, right? Um, when that need is messed up, so for example, imagine I used the example earlier of like uh, you know, eating home cooked meals. Imagine if you're um, you know, like um if you think that your mother uh is feeding you and not feeding you a good meal, like purposefully, right? Um that is going to mess up how you look at her. It's going to destroy the way that she uh is represented it in your heart, in your mind. Similarly with spouse, uh, once you don't feel fulfilled because you're used to pornography, then you start thinking that, oh, maybe she doesn't love me, maybe there's no love there. You don't feel that attachment, that closeness anymore with the individual. So it really begins to affect that relationship between the spouse. Uh, it becomes a source of argument and fights because you don't feel fulfilled, right? That normal, healthy uh uh you know, uh intimacy, it doesn't feel fulfilling anymore. And so then there's a frustration that gets built up. And then, like I said before, if if you're used to having a high like dopamine spike all the time, then when you don't get it, it also affects you. Not to mention that it also leads to like erectile dysfunction and pre uh you know premature ejaculation, a lot of physical problems in intimacy that also then makes it difficult to be intimate and then causes more frustration and more problems.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Wow, this is so so deep. I guess like it's more than just the surface physical, physical effect. It's more than that, way more than that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, also I think it's worth adding to that that sometimes pornography, um, like what you see in pornography is this idealized version of a person, right? And then there's the expectation that your spouse has to meet that that idealized version of whatever you're seeing on your phone or whatever. So there is that factor also that really also impacts the marriage later on, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. Like it it creates this idea in your mind that this is how my marriage is going to be, this is how intimacy is going to be. And then you go in with that expectation, and then you know, from the very first day, you're disappointed because that's not how it is, right? So then uh, you know, then obviously it's frustration, then you're just like, why not? And then you're so used to it because your mind, you know, you know, through the exposure that you've had, then anything else doesn't seem normal. And then people start thinking that maybe if it was someone else, I would be in a you know, maybe a healthier, you know, intimate relationship. And I've seen people where, you know, like uh the uh, for example, couples where one of them might struggle with intimacy because of other reasons, like maybe just low libido, whatnot. Um, from even that person has a frustrated partner, frustrated husband or wife. And then on the other hand, someone who has a very healthy libido and their uh husband and wife might still be frustrated because of the pornography issue, right? Because they think that uh their their spouse needs to be more active. But it's like, wait, I mean, they are as active as you would expect any healthy individual to be.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm interested in to know the um the physiological differences. So if we were, for example, to take two brains, one brain of a person who has consumed porn for over a decade, and another brain that has not, what physiological differences would we see?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so uh I mentioned the the pathway that um you know for the for rewards, right? So we have like a pleasure center in our brain, like the the uh the neurotransmitter dopamine is what gets released. So anytime you do something pleasurable, whether it's like you know eating a plate of you know biryani or you know, uh enjoying video game or you know, even um uh hanging out with someone that you might enjoy, uh, you know, and then to obviously as intimacy, sexual pleasure, pornography, all of these things. Um, so uh uh ideally what happens is that you, you know, you engage in something pleasurable, your dopamine goes up, and then um it has to come down, right? And that coming down, the higher the peak is, the the the longer the come down is, right? This is why right after that uh period, when especially for men, uh when they reach the peak of it, the orgasm, after right afterwards that drop, there's this kind of like it's almost like the opposing effect. Whatever's bringing them pleasure, they just don't want to engage in it anymore, right? And and wives will oftentimes have a complaint about that, like, you know, uh like when he's done, it's like he's not interested anymore. That's just a physiological thing that ends up happening. So, but that's our brains we have resetting. In fact, if you look at the chart, it kind of goes down to a base level, but it goes even below that because it's resetting, it's balancing. Uh, you know, it's not normal for the brain to keep getting dopamine. I remember there was a study, I think I read about uh in mice, they did the study where they gave every time the mice pressed a lever, it would uh Give uh the the the mouse uh dopamine right in their brain, they would feel good. And they kept doing it to the point where I think they um they killed themselves or died too because of the amount of dopamine they kept wanting more and more and more, right? So brain needs to reset, otherwise it's it's damaging your brain, right? So I think that's the part that uh ends up because if you keep engaging in this, and we th those people who struggle with pornography, I mean, I've worked with so many of these individuals, it starts out very slow, you know, occasionally, then to like every day, and then to some, I've seen some people who like three, four hours a day, they look at pornography every single day. Right now, that's the other extreme of it. Obviously, there are not too many people that are there, uh alhamdulillah. But the thing is that it could get to that point because now for your brain it's not enough. And when when it's coming down, uh the the the dopamine levels in your brain, that part is like I said, it's the opposite of feeling happy and good, right? So that part, if the brain is used to this spike, it it turns into depression. And so then pornography or anything pleasurable becomes a way to cope with that depressive state because you no longer want to feel that depression. It's unbearable for the individual to feel that depression. So it becomes like this perpetual cycle where now you're just trying to compensate for the effects of the pornography, the effects of it um uh, you know, physiologically. There's a really good uh book, it's called Dopamine Nation. Um, I think Anna Lemke is her name, the the author who wrote it. Um, but she explains this whole like uh physiological uh you know uh system in the brain really well. And I recommend people to read that.

SPEAKER_02:

And this is true for any type of addiction.

SPEAKER_01:

Basically, but the the uh in terms of like categories of things that bring us pleasure, sexual pleasure is at the top of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, okay, okay. I wanted to ask about how to overcome it. Some people think that willpower or even other people think that just spirituality is enough to overcome it. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think you need a multi-pronged approach, right? Um, so um, what makes us us like humans? We've talked about the nafs, right? So we have this nafs, um, and you know, it the at the very core it seeks to um please itself, be comfortable like an animal, uh, but it can be tamed and trained, like you have to do mujahada and mukhalef of the nafs, right? Then we also have uh within us like our uh system of thinking, akqal, uh cognition, right? So the ability to think about things, recognize uh triggers, patterns, uh monitor yourself, uh, think about consequences of the behaviors. So that's there. Then we also have emotions, right? Yes, like uh some of them are very deep-rooted emotions. Um, what am I feeling right now? I'm feeling sad, I'm happy, I'm anxious, um, feeling guilt. Is it healthy guilt? Is it unhealthy guilt? That's all that is emotion. And then we have the ruh as well. Now, these things are not separated, they're kind of like you know, layers, you can say, but they all are intertwined, they're all working together. So when uh when in this system there is a problem, even if the problem is a nafsani problem, in this case pornography, one can argue this is uh uh mostly a nafsani problem, but it does affect other parts. So, for example, if someone uh wants to engage with pornography, I mentioned earlier they rationalize that they're using the aqal to justify what they're doing, right? Um and then they the same person can also use the aql to talk themselves out of the behavior, right? So there's a connection between akal and the nafs. Then if you look at from the perspective of emotions, I mentioned people who are depressed, for example, they uh engage in pornography to feel, you know, to feel happy. There's a connection there. Ruhani, obviously, the more you engage in it, um, the the away you are from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And the vice versa is also correct where the Quran mentions that in the Salatan Ha'in Fashai al-Munga, like it's supposed to, prayer is supposed to uh keep you away from these uh behaviors. So the more you engage with Allah, the more you engage with salah, a meaningful engagement, um it'll protect you from the nafsani things as well. So because the problem is also multi, um uh, you know, it's complex, um, this the solution, the fix also has to be uh a multi-pronged approach. You cannot just say, okay, I'm gonna stay away from the behavior or you know, it's not going to be sufficient. You have to be aware of your thoughts, you have to be aware of your emotions, you have to uh manage your connection with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, you know, if you don't have any deep, meaningful, and not to mention social connections, right? Social support. If you're isolated, you're more likely to engage in pornography. So you have to be engaged more with uh society, do things for other people, um, uh, you know, live a more productive life. There's all these things that you have to do. I'm working on a workbook right now, actually, on pornography addiction, but you know, it'll take a couple of uh weeks for it to finish. But in that I have chapters on, you know, uh uh each of these areas, like how to treat using your net, your akal, your nafs, emotions, your hsas, ruah, because all that requires it. But it has to be an approach that, and in every moment when the person is struggling, they're going to engage in all of these uh uh aspects of their psyche. Otherwise, you know, it's not going to be efficient. There are few people who have that willpower, you know, very few people who can say, I'm not gonna do it, and they'll back up and they'll never touch it again. Um, but those are far and few. Most of us are, you know, normal human beings who who go back and forth and struggle, and you know, but that struggle is good, by the way. Sometimes people think like um, you know, the road to recovery is not like a straight line, right? So you might take two steps forward, one back, and that's fine. You still make small and steady progress, right? So if you were able to keep away from pornography, let's say you're a daily consumer of pornography and you keep away for even like two days, that's a progress. One day is progress. Then you increase it to three days and four days. You might think, okay, after four days, I'm still looking at pornography, yes, but those four days you did not, right? So sometimes Haitan comes in and says, No, no, you're still like that, and what's the point? Or some people, when they start to engage in it, they have this inner voice that tells them, don't do it. This is bad for you. But then they're like, Oh, it's too late for me. Or they're engaging in it and they have this shame and guilt, and they're like, Oh, now it's too late, I'm doomed anyway, I'm going to hell. What's the point? You know, you have to be aware of these things and you have to be able to use these things like healthy shame, healthy social connections, healthy support to be able to pull you out of this problem.

SPEAKER_00:

The one thing I want to add to that is that while like while we're taking these practical steps, the most also at the end of the day, we have to channel our desires. We're human beings. And so it's also important that we are taking proactive steps to try to get married so that we can eventually channel those desires. And that if we're just putting marriage as something that that's far off and we're just treating as something that just happened one day rather than taking proactive steps, then obviously we're gonna constantly be dealing with these struggles and these desires and um and and not channeling it in in an appropriate way. So um when you talk about the multi-prong approach, but one of those prongs is getting ready for married, uh, for marriage, just making sure that we're ready financially, emotionally, whatever it may be. So I just wanted to add that part.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you know, the earlier when we were talking about marriage and you asked someone asked about like pornography and if they should get married or not, uh one of the things that we're seeing now in this in this day and age is people are not getting married, right? Um, that people uh there's this fear, there's this like anxiety of marriage. A lot of people, even though they might not have pornography addiction or you know, they still don't want to get married. So I think we have to encourage marriage, right, from an early on. I think that's the part we need to work on. And we need to remove barriers to get uh getting married. And that I think will also help in in uh you know in in preventing some of these issues. Uh, but uh, you know, the the thought that like when you said being ready for marriage, right? Um, because sometimes it's even culturally, some people like you might say financially, um, some people might say, oh, well, like you have to have this amount of money, right? You know, uh, in some cultures, I won't name, um, you know, like when you go ask the the the the the the the girl's father, you have to like present a dowry or you have to have a certain amount, right?$25,000,$40. And I'm thinking, who in the world has 20? I don't have$25,000 to spare, right? You know, who has this money that's just sitting there and they're like, I'm gonna go, and and in this day and age, people can't barely afford like their living expenses. Who's going to save$25,000 and what age? You see, like it makes it really hard to get married. You know, when I got married, I was still in school, right? Alhamdulillah, I mean, I made it. I mean, I had my first son and I had uh no, I didn't have a job, I was still in school, right? My second son was born on uh the same year, the same month actually that I graduated with my doctoral degree. That's when I first got my first job, right? So, but alhamdulillah, you know, you make it. So uh I think getting ready uh to for marriage is more of this mental process, maturity, finding the right person, the person who realizes that, hey, we're still struggling, you know, we're gonna have our issues or we're gonna work through it together, having support from family and parents, I think that's really important. Um, and we need to facilitate that. Like I don't want to create it, I don't want to see barriers because then we're uh fueling the problem of pornography in this case, uh, you know, by by putting up barriers to getting married.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh speaking of uh family support, so unfortunately, in a lot of cases, when um the family discovers that a family member is struggling with porn addiction, they don't even see it as a struggle. They just immediately jump into, oh my God, this is so shameful, you're disgusting, like you brought shame into the family and all of that. So, and this just I assume that this just goes into feeding that guilt feeling, unhealthy guilt feeling. Let's say someone like discovers that a family member is actually struggling through this. What is the right approach to go about it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, uh, there's going to be some normal feelings that happen, right? Obviously, there's some reactionary feeling. Human beings, we're we tend to have reactions, right? Where that's just like the core of our emotions. Um, you know, sometimes you get angry because something happened, someone hurt you, for example. So, you know, if you if it's your spouse, for example, you might feel hurt by them, right? You might feel like, oh, how, you know, I feel betrayed. Initially, those feelings are normal. In fact, they these feelings will linger on for a little while. Uh, if it's your children or like, you know, it's some family member, you might say it brought shame to the family, you might feel ashamed. Those initial feelings are are there, but I think you have to kind of be able to dig and say, okay, you know, this is a problem. It's not gonna go away by by itself. Let me see what I can do to offer. Uh, how much of criticism and shaming is going to be helpful here, right? Um, you know, there's healthy shame and there's unhealthy shame. So it uh, you know, let's not utilize unhealthy shame because that's what's going to you know push this individual into committing this even more. Let's keep it healthy. Okay, you know, this is bad, it's uh it shouldn't have happened, but what can I do for you, right? How can I help you? And and make it our problem, right? This is in the world that we live in, it's very easy to just point fingers and say this is their problem and his problem, her problem. No, it's our problem, whether it's uh between the couples or in a in a household. What can we do to help? Like, for example, I there was a teenager I worked with who struggled with pornography, and one of the things that uh he did was he he told his parents about it, right? And so then they were able to help him. Yeah, this was very interesting. They were able to help him. They set up some, you know, some systems where he didn't have his phone alone with him. Then they realized that he was, you know, he was close to like almost 18, 19 years of age. So they said, we're gonna try to get him married early. So they told him, like, look, you know, be patient and you know, we'll get you married early so you have this like something to look forward to. Um, but if the the path to marriage is like, and this is a family problem, right? Sometimes families will say, Oh, you have to make this amount of money, you have to be done with medical school and residency and that, you know, the person's thinking, okay, that means for the next 10 years, I'm not going to get married, you know, no one can delay their gratification for that long, right? Like that's that's not even possible. So, you know, you have to be realistic and say, okay, like, okay, you know, well, like when's the soonest we can get this person married, right? And and um, and if the person's aware of it, then like it that might make it easier for them to control themselves. But having that support from family in this case, the parents was actually very helpful. Uh, and the most successful cases that I've seen, especially married individuals, is where the spouse is uh is in, you know, it's like, okay, this is our problem, we're gonna work on it together. Um, and it's not like, oh, he is this way and she's it that way, and uh, you know, pointing fingers at one another.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, this reminds me of the hadith where the Prophet said, so either Jaakum Mantrodonahu dinha who deinahu wa hulu koho faza wudu, illam tafalu tokunfi or kabir. So this like this is manifested in these days, like yeah, you can't get married until you make this much money. And like you said, you can't hold your like natural urges, subhanAllah.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you translate the hadith for the audience?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. So we most most of us know the first part of the hadith. If someone with good uh deen and character proposes they marry them. Now, the second part that's not so much known is if you don't do that, then there's gonna be great corruption uh in the in the world. And this is the corruption we're seeing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, I grew up in Pakistan, and in Pakistan, one of the problems that is very common, unfortunately, is child sexual abuse and molestation, right? And and um I think the the marital barriers is part of the issue that contributes to this problem. Like I remember when I was growing up, look uh, you know, the people in my uh family, uncles, and others, when they got married, they were in their 30s. So the norm was in your 30s, 35 is like the marriage age. It wasn't early. So, you know, at that time, even now, if you go back to Pakistan, I can speak on uh for that, I can't speak for other places, is that they, you know, the typical like marriage age is like 30, like 30, 32. That's not a very healthy age, right? So before they didn't have pornography and you know, the the the sexual frustration and all that was coming out, unfortunately, on children, which is even more damaging than pornography, because pornography, you're damaging yourself through sexual abuse, you're damaging other people, um, you know, and ruining their lives. So I think now it's um uh you know uh slightly better, but that now what's happened is shifted towards pornography, right? Um so if you look at the data from Google, for example, you'll see one of the biggest consumers of pornography would be some of these Muslim countries, including India, in you know, Pakistan, India, where marriage has become you know so still so difficult to get married that uh you know these people end up uh engaging in pornography.

SPEAKER_02:

SubhanAllah, subhanAllah. In Jordan, it's not that different, not in terms of pornography and uh consumption, I have no idea about that, but the uh average age of marriage, it's like very normal 30, 31, 35. Subhanallah, it's so strange how that became the normal.

SPEAKER_00:

In Jordan, is it because of the same reasons, like financial expectations? Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, financial expectations, the cost of living is very high, all of that. If uh if someone's listening to us right now and they're struggling with this problem, what is one thing you can say to them?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, the first thing is you're not alone. I think this isn't this isn't uh a problem that only you have, and uh, you know, and you don't it doesn't have to be a problem that you deal with alone. Doesn't mean you make it public and you go out and you know announce it to the world, but you know, maybe finding someone who you think can be helpful, um, you'll be surprised. Sometimes I had one uh client who was struggling and he reached out to one of his friends who was also struggling. So then they became kind of like these uh, you know, partners in this uh struggle that where they kept an eye on each other, like having someone in in Alcoholics Anonymous, they have this thing called sponsor, right? So someone that you can call if you have this urge to drink. So for this person, he became his almost like his sponsor who's someone who was helping him and both kind of helped each other. So uh, you know, trusting someone with this, uh ideally someone that who's mature enough who can help you through this problem, uh, instead of uh, you know, bring uh instead of put you down too much. And then professional support, right? I mean, online therapy, even if you do something uh, you know, that's just text-based online, it's it's still better than nothing. But ideally, someone who's professional, um, I think uh doing some self-reflection as to where the problem is coming from. Sometimes the problem is this purely behavioral issue, it's just something that you learned, overlearnt behavior, right? Habit. You habituated into it, slowly just kind of became that way. Oftentimes the problem is different. The problem is there's anxiety, there's depression, maybe there could be some childhood trauma issue that you're not aware of. So getting professional help can be very, very, uh, you know, very beneficial. Uh and there are programs out there that are free online. You can YouTube, there's things out there, there's lectures you can watch. Um, you know, there are uh uh there's a like a website, um, uh what is it, Lower Your Gaze or something? You know what I'm talking about? There's a website.

SPEAKER_00:

The Instagram account, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or Purify Your Gaze, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Purify your gaze, right? I think it's a it's a it's a Muslim-owned uh thing, but they also partner you up with someone and you know, so there's programs out there that can be very helpful. Um, but uh but don't let it be. Like the the if you have a thought that this is not that big of a problem, but that's a thought from shaitan. That's a wasp of shaitan because uh even it like I said earlier, even for us to be able to want to look at women's or you know, for me as a man, for another woman online with any kind of lustful intention, whether she's covered or not covered, that in itself is a problem right there. So from that moment on, it's a problem. So don't think that, oh, just because there's some people who are doing it four hours a day, I'm not doing it that much, or you know, I could have been committing Zana. No, all that is just nonsense that Shaitan is putting in your mind to justify it to keep the behavior going.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. So like a consistent small sin becomes a big sin, like becomes a subhanAllah. Absolutely. Subhanallah. And uh do you work uh with like individuals or you're fully dedicated to teaching right now?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have uh time or capacity, but I know Khalil Center, that's you know, my like my uh organization that we have people that are available um to uh to offer services, but I supervise them and most of my time is spent teaching or just managing the clients that I've had for many, many years now.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you expand a little bit on the the workbook that you mentioned before? Like um how you know, once it's done, how people can get a hold of that, and and uh a little bit about like how it can help people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so uh basically we have this uh uh contract with Clarita's book. Uh so if you go on Khalil Center's website, KhalilCenter.com, but if you Google it, we've done a series of workbooks. Our first workbook was on OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, especially scrupulosity, like what's for satite that people have. Uh our second workbook was on generalized anxiety disorder, or just generalized anxiety, and then our third one was on uh parenting. So we're doing a series of workbooks. Uh and this is for people who want to help themselves and they don't have access to. And especially in this case, they feel really ashamed. So, you know, the one I'm working on now is on pornography. So I'm just going through a few like revisions. So it might take a couple of weeks, but then obviously it'll take time to publish, inshallah. So the plan is hopefully uh within the next like three to six months, we'll have something uh you know announced. But um uh it's almost done, you can say. But yeah, I think the goal was again, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, but the goal is to like for people who are struggling for them to have some kind of support. And once it's uh published, then you know, we hopefully we can disseminate in and uh you know, if possible, even hopefully someone can sponsor and we can make and make it free because it's it's such a huge problem that I think there's a big need in the Muslim community. And in this workbook, um, so I teach and on uh you know we train individuals on this model of psychotherapy called TIIP, traditional Islamically integrated psychotherapy model. And like I mentioned before, it conceptualizes a human being from like, you know, akal nafsiruh, their emotions. So the approach in the book is also very similar. In all of our workbooks, the approach is very similar. Um, so you know, recognizing where the issue is and then how to tackle it uh, you know, uh in a in this kind of a multiplex manner is what we do.

SPEAKER_02:

Very nice. We were just listening before the interview to you talking about the difference between Western psychology and Islamic psychology.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which by the way, nafs, the issue of nafs is the biggest difference between one of the biggest differences, right? Because in Western psychology, pornography is sometimes considered healthy, masturbation pornography. You know, there there's there, yeah, there's some couples, couple counselors who actually, uh, if the husband and wife are struggling with intimacy, they'll say, look at pornography together, watch pornography together, it'll help you. Um, you know, they like that because they don't have this sense of like the nafs is bad, and if it's not inherently bad, but it has a tendency to engage in something bad, and if you don't control it, so a little bit is not okay, right? Especially if it's something that that's as bad as pornography, even a little bit is considered bad. But from a Western psychology perspective, it only becomes bad if you're not productive, if you're not making money, if you're a burden on society, uh, but Islam doesn't uh you know uh see human value based on their material value.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, that's crazy. It's scary going to a Muslim person, going to a non-Muslim psychologist, like you don't know what they're gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's another topic for another podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Inshallah. Inshallah, inshallah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so if anybody wants to benefit from your your work or your content, can you um share your Instagram handle or any other ways we can follow you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I I don't I I I wish I could be more benefit to people. Uh you can go Google me, but yeah, I I think uh organizations like their uh, you know, I mentioned Khalil Center, so go to Khalilcenter.com. Um, and I think through that you'll find uh people. And most uh therapists have some level of training and obviously awareness about pornography. So even if they're not, you know, ideally if you find someone who's a licensed uh uh sex addiction uh sex addiction therapist or a certified sex CSAT, they call it, that's good. But even if you can't find one, and if you find any therapist, uh, you know, you go in with intentionally with this uh issue, this problem that I'm here to recover from this struggle uh and and start the work, and inshallah you'll see uh you know some benefit. So don't don't look for me because I'm really not an expert. You know, alhamdulillah, I'm a psychologist and I I teach and I've done as much as I can, but um I don't want to put myself out there as some kind of expert that who's you know who you should follow.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, no problem. Thank you so much. This topic has been on our mind for I don't know, maybe over six months now, but we just couldn't find the right person to tackle it. So I'm very happy we finally got uh to talk about it. And uh to our beautiful listeners, you heard if you're struggling, you're not alone, uh just uh seek help and inshallah help will come. Um thank you so much uh again. We really appreciate taking the time uh to speak with us. And uh our listeners, inshallah, we'll see you on the next episode. All right.