Diary of a Matchmaker

From Child-Free by Choice to Expecting by Choice 🥳

• Halal Match • Episode 83

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We never thought we’d say this out loud… but we were that Muslim couple who confidently said, “We’re not having kids.” Full stop. And now? Alhamdullilah! We’re expecting. This episode is one of the rawest we’ve ever recorded: the real fears, the private conversations, the guilt, the relief, and the plot twist that changed everything.

But this isn’t just about us. It’s about you, the single Muslim who’s unsure about kids, overwhelmed by the world, afraid of losing yourself, or scared of choosing the wrong partner. We dig into why so many of us avoid the topic, what actually sits underneath the hesitation, and how perspectives can shift with time, healing, and the right person.

It’s honest, messy, and very real. You’ll feel seen.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


SPEAKER_02:

Assalamu alaikum. I'm Hiba.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm Zayd.

SPEAKER_02:

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_01:

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_01:

So let's dive in. Bismillah. Asalaamu alaikum, everyone. Welcome back to another episode.

SPEAKER_02:

As salam alaikum.

SPEAKER_01:

Children. Children is part of the conversations that come up during the courting phase. And children were also something that we discussed when we were going through our courting phase.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was actually a big part of our conversation. But you had your fears bringing it up, and I had my fears. And for a good reason, though. Because if you have some sort of extreme views when it comes to children, you don't want that to kind of deter the person that you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00:

Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But why don't we start with you? How what were your thoughts and feelings around the topic of children when you were talking to me?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so honestly, like growing up, I know you asked me about when we were talking, but I'll just tell you before. Growing up, like I always pictured myself as a mother, having children, especially after like um seeing my sister having children, they're so cute and all of that. But then I don't know what happened a few years uh before we started talking. I completely changed my mind. And I knew I didn't want to have children. Or anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Honestly, trigger feelings.

SPEAKER_02:

I think, like subconsciously, like I mentioned before, because I knew I wasn't gonna get married. Marriage is not something that's written for me. So it kind of like my brain just blocked it, so I don't feel like I'm missing out on something.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_02:

I think so.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh so there wasn't something you saw or an experience you were.

SPEAKER_02:

It wasn't something, but there were other factors.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Other factors, and um, I can elaborate a little bit more on. But when we started talking, I knew I don't want to have children, but like you said, I was so afraid to bring it up because I liked you so much. I liked the connection we had, and um, I can see you like as someone who might be my husband in the future, and I was afraid that if I mention it, this is gonna repel you. You're gonna think, oh my god, what kind of a woman is this? Every woman thinks about becoming a mother, what kind of hard, cold-hearted person this is, and um and then if I change my mind, you're gonna think, oh, she's only compromising for me. No, I want somebody who really wants to have children.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So I was terrified. I don't remember how we brought it up.

SPEAKER_01:

I think I was the first one to bring it up.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01:

If I remember correctly, um, because it just felt like it was the one thing that was left to discuss. We had covered pretty much everything at that point except for kids. And um, I don't know how or if I had a very unique question um to bring it up, but I finally brought it up and there was just I think it was probably on a video call, there was just this immense relief that you had because you realized at that point that you were that you felt the same way. Right?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't remember honestly, so I'll take your word for it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so to kind of help the audience out, uh we at that point when we were talking, we were very averse to the idea of having children.

SPEAKER_02:

I you know, before you go into that, I want to know your reasons.

SPEAKER_01:

I think it was mainly because of the state of the world. Uh I I know I kind of find how do I f I feel a bit pretentious saying that, but um the world was just really I mean it's in I would say arguably in a it's in a worse place now than when it was back in 2019. Of course. But uh global warming was more of an issue then in terms of how frequently it was brought up and discussed. I was just seeing people around me burned out, overwhelmed, just waiting for the weekend. Oh, and the other reason was because I looked at life as kind of two things. Either A you go the traditional route, which is a nine to five, you work, maybe oftentimes it's it's a job that you hate, and you just wait for the weekends, or you pursue the more unconventional route, business, art, things like things that are are more typically unstable, and you try to build some sort of future around that. But children typically don't fall into the latter picture, right? Yeah, like naturally with children you need a stable environment, you need financial stability, you need to s be able to spend time with them, right? And a conventional job allows for that, yeah, right? So I was pursuing art, I was presuming pursuing a more unconventional route in life, and I didn't see children fitting into that picture.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's why I said, no, I don't think children are gonna happen for me because this is the kind of life I want to pursue. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But you know, being afraid uh like about the state of the world, whether it's the climate issues or just the political scene, the amount of injustice in the world, that was one of my reasons as well. And another reason was for some reason I felt that I wasn't gonna be a good mom. Like I don't have what it takes to give a baby, to give a child a good life. And I'm not talking about material stuff. And I felt honestly, like we mentioned on um that episode with Coach Mesa. Yeah, a great episode, by the way, guys. If you're thinking about children, it's it's a must-watch or must-listen. But as I said on that episode, that I feel a lot of people they shouldn't have children, they shouldn't be allowed to have children because I see I see children around me being like ruined, their lives being ruined because of the poor way they were brought up.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds wrong kind of saying that I don't feel like we should be saying that because Allah is the one that ultimately decides who should have children around the world. Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm not like uh gonna go and like uh say something blasphemous. Of course, of course not, but it's just like infuriating seeing the way people bring up their children, some people. And another reason was as you know, because I have a genetic uh problem. Right. And I didn't want to pass that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. But so you had legitimate fears. Uh so fast forward. Um, so that was what 20 dishes. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02:

Before you fast forward, yeah, let's go back to that conversation. So to our conversation, how did we talk about it?

SPEAKER_01:

There wasn't much less to talk about. You just had this immense sense of relief that we were like, oh my god, I feel the same way. But the other thing was is that I remember, so I do remember this. We were at the ICNA convention, yeah, and uh Sheikh Yasubirjas was talking, and it was a parenting conversation, something something like that. I remember one thing he said that stood out, which is for the people that are newly married, if if you're not thinking about children at some point in your life, whether you know, four or five years into your marriage, you're gonna get bored. Right? Like the the point was is that you're gonna get bored doing the same thing over and over again four or five years into your marriage, and that you're going to need children to add spice in your life. That's pretty much he was saying. I know I probably phrased it.

SPEAKER_02:

I didn't believe it when I heard that, honestly. But you remember him saying that, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but uh yes, uh you know, I felt like I hit the jackpot. Is that the right expression?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Because like it's very rare, or at least in my life, I've never met any any man who's not interested in having children. Like, even a lot of people, they just get married for the purpose of having children. My friend, one of my friends told me the only reason I got married to my husband is just to have children. Yeah. And when my parents like learned about this, my dad couldn't like comprehend it. Like, I don't understand. Like, what do you mean? You want to get married, but you don't want to have children. Like in my culture, at least my parents' generation, it's unheard of for a couple to like intentionally decide not to have children. But like you said, lo and behold, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So fast forward.

SPEAKER_02:

Fast forward.

SPEAKER_01:

Fast forward. So that was November in December 2019. Then alhamdulillah, we had our Nika, and now here we are 2025, and uh we're expecting our first child. So this is actually our first time revealing it on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But um, how did we get from there to here is kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, quite the journey.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So before finding out that we were expecting, we had pretty much given up the idea of having children. I'm not gonna go into too much detail about you know the things we did and and how much we tried, but we had just pretty much come to terms that that children isn't meant for us and that uh we should just really focus right now on growing our matchmaking service, growing our food business, and for just pursuing other things, traveling, whatever it might be. Just uh towards the end of our vacation, we find out that uh we're expecting Actually it's the first day the same day where we got back from Colombia.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So we get back from our vacation uh from Colombia and uh we find out you're pregnant.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. How many years in our marriage went before we decided we want to have children?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I I think we've been trying for two years, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think it was you that was rem pretty much the driving force behind that, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02:

You know why? Because I was just thinking about the future. Like I didn't have this strong uh motherly instinct which women usually have, but I was just thinking about the future. How is the future gonna look? Are we gonna regret this in the future? Right. I remember your old age.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I remember you kept saying that you would like to have somebody in your old age. Like God forbid one of us passes away and there's nobody gonna that would be around to take care of us.

SPEAKER_02:

But it wasn't about like having children so they can take care of us, but it's about companionship. It's about like I don't know, it's just the f the the future looked very uh not gloomy, but uh just very scary without children. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

I wouldn't say I think it was mainly so you have somebody in your old age to be with you, not necessarily take care of you because I don't wanna I don't ever want to be a burden for my children. Of course not. But um I would obviously like my children to be around and obviously see them and things like that. So just to have someone around in your old age, because you see old people I mean, like I can think of one of your customers, right? Uh from when we were running our ghost kitchen. People in their old age that just have nobody and they just wake up with nothing to do, nobody around them, no family, no children, no grandkids. And it's it is pretty miserable.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a depressing image.

SPEAKER_01:

It is, it is. So we we pivoted. Um, and it wasn't just like a flip of a switch. We we talked about it, we re-evaluated our circumstances, and then at the end of the day, I mean the Quran says it clearly. Right? Like, don't kill your children out of poverty, like not literally in that sense, but the point is like put your trust in Allah that we provide for them, we provide for you. So that Allah is the provider, that your risk comes from Allah. Obviously, plan and and do your part and tie your camel, put then put your trust in Allah, right? If I'm understanding that verse correctly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, uh, I was never honestly worried about the finances because I always believe I always believe that children come with their risk. But you know what I noticed? We're not a unique case. Out of our clients, I can think of three people who stated that they don't want to have children.

SPEAKER_01:

For sure, yeah. But still, I would argue that it's not the the what do you call the the general consensus.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? There's there is the majority of people do want children, especially guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The question is, why are people not wanting children? And people come with a myriad of different reasons.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. But you know, when we started preparing for this episode, I just thought, okay, it's like a simple question. Yeah, people don't want their responsibility. But after thinking about it and doing more research, it turns out there are so many more reasons. Like it's more nuanced than what you would think.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So the first reason that comes to mind is that people don't want to recreate the trauma that they experience, given obviously that they had a very traumatic child childhood. Yeah. So some of the reasons or things that people will say on the registration form is that I don't want to end up like my parents. I don't want to recreate for my children the same childhood that I had. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I feel this uh reason we don't talk about it. And sometimes like the person they themselves they don't realize that this is the reason, it's subconscious.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's unfair because alhamdulillah, we have so many professional resources, Muslim professional resources that can help you navigate that. So to use that as an excuse is is really kind of a poor way out, I would say. Which begs the next question, uh which is is there a willingness to work on yourself or not?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Do you realize you have a problem?

SPEAKER_01:

Do you realize you have a problem? Are you uh being lazy about self-growth and improvement and self-help? So this abundance of professional Muslim resources, Muslim mental health is becoming widespread and common. So there's no reason to not seek treatment.

SPEAKER_02:

And if you don't work on your trauma, it's not just gonna stop at I don't want to have children. It's gonna like come in different different ways and different shapes throughout your life, throughout your relationships. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So the question to ask yourself is are you making this decision because you generally don't want kids? Or are you just terrified that you'll repeat what happened to you as a child? Take scourage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Another reason is more of a religious reason, which is like people some people feel like I'm not at the place I want religiously. I'm not like I have a long way to go in uh my relationship with Allah. I can bring up another human being to this life, like right.

SPEAKER_01:

Or or the fear that you know you're gonna raise a children that's gonna fall off the path. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02:

And uh I don't have what it takes to bring up uh righteous children. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So what if they grow up and they don't pray and that they don't stay on the deen, then you have to answer for that. I guess so the people are just I can't I'm barely taking responsibility for myself. How can I take the responsibility for another human?

SPEAKER_02:

But we're talking specifically about religious responsibility, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So the religious obligation of taking care of myself, right? We have a religious obligation to ourselves, yeah, and if we can't keep up or uh maintain that responsibility, then how are we gonna fulfill that responsibility with another human?

SPEAKER_02:

You know what? I'd like to see more of these people than seeing people who just take parenthood as granted and just like they they don't invest in their children, and I'm not talking financially, but they don't give good terbia, they don't care, their kids pray, they don't pray.

SPEAKER_01:

How they just stick them in Sunday school, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I'd like to see be more people who like take parenthood very seriously, up to the point that they might question if they want to have children or not, then have more of those people.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, they take it seriously when it comes to education though. Uh what's another point, another reason?

SPEAKER_02:

I think women or some women are worried about ending up parenting alone. Yeah, because let's face it, our Muslim men aren't taking as much responsibility as they should in terms of parenting. They see that their responsibility ends at just providing, right? When it's much more. But like 90% of the load is on them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, because at the end of the day they're modeling after both parents, not just one parent. Exactly. Right? So if the father's coming home and he's not praying or he's still on his phone, then that's obviously gonna have an effect, right?

SPEAKER_02:

And also like with chores, just taking care of the children themselves. Like it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, we don't know that yet.

SPEAKER_02:

We see it with like our friends who have children. Well, I work at a daycare center, so yeah, I see it. Exactly. And you know what? Another thing occurred to me. Some women also might worry that look at the percentage of divorce, look at how many people are just leaving their wives, how many men are leaving their wives. I don't want to end up a single parent. Like if that situation happens where I'm divorced, I don't want to have the responsibility of having a child.

SPEAKER_01:

That's just so silly when I hear it like that. Because it's like you're going into a marriage saying, What if this? What if lightning strikes me? What if like a train hits me? What if the world ends tomorrow? What if this? What if that?

SPEAKER_02:

It's like anything can happen. But for some people, it's more it's like closer than just hypothetical. If they see like failed marriages in their families and in their circles, so it's nearer and dearer to their hearts than just a hypothetical situation.

SPEAKER_01:

So to me, the drive would be I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be another statistic. I'm gonna do better than that person. I'm gonna do better than my uncle and auntie that got divorced.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but what if you end up like with a guy who suddenly, you know how you always say women sometimes just flip, flip a switch?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they yeah, they have a crazy switch.

SPEAKER_02:

What if she ends up with a man like this who just suddenly, I don't know, decides.

SPEAKER_01:

What if she gets hit by lightning tomorrow?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I'm not justifying it. I'm not justifying it.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm just no, because you're throwing like this ridiculous what ifs.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm saying that some some like what-ifs are more real for some people than others.

SPEAKER_01:

There's no how is a hypothetical divorce more real?

SPEAKER_02:

Because I just can't do it.

SPEAKER_01:

Just because she's seen it in her family? Because if it's if it's a pattern she grew up with, if it's she sees miserable marriages around her, then that's like saying, Well, I saw uh I know of five family members that committed suicide, and and I know three people that uh died by a car accident. What if that happens in my marriage?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, come on. It's that's just ridiculous. No, I can't, I'm not buying that. It's it I think it's a cheap way out. Um, but yeah, let's uh share another reason. Um special needs. Oh, that's that's a scary one.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a scary one, especially right now, since we are expecting. Yes, yeah. Yes, it is. It is it's it's a qadr from Allah. You can't yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, there's no way around that. I mean, it's like the tests of all tests, I think. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you know, we have um a girl in our neighborhood who ended up with her firstborn was like uh severe, like uh he has a severe disability where he's just bedridden all day. Okay. And it's just like I see how it just completely changed their lives. Like they were a happy couple, and now it's just a full-time job. Alhamdulillah, they had healthy children after him, but it is a legitimate fear. And I don't know. Or maybe it's not a like a huge disability, but what if we end up with um I don't know, an autistic child? Or autism is considered a disability, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Or I don't know, anything could happen.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I mean, so there are things to kind of mitigate that fear, right? So there is a a test which you can take, a very expensive test. So I first and foremost, our religion does allow for abortion.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what I was just gonna say. Like for people who don't care about half. Just so for the record. So for people who don't care about halal and haram, like uh it's not gonna be an issue. Like if they discover at uh month five or month six that there's a disability, then they would abort, right? It's just messed up. It's it's messed up, yeah. But like Islamically, you have until month number four to abort, in case not just because you want to, but because there's a legitimate reason, right? Right. And the problem is most uh a lot of these tests uh and a lot of these conditions, they don't show up in the beginning. Yeah. So that's a fear.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a legitimate, that's more of a legitimate fear than a hypothetical divorce.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I would say subhanAllah, like like you said, you can't just go with life with what if this happens and what if that, like Right, right.

SPEAKER_01:

So I mean at some point, I mean, as the Quran says, Faida Azam topata waqalallahu alayhi wa shawl. Like you make a decision and you put your trust in Allah.

SPEAKER_02:

You make dua and you have to waq.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay, another reason. Um, the immigrant parent that just guilts you through life.

SPEAKER_02:

I feel like you have a lot to say about that.

SPEAKER_01:

I do have a lot to say. I don't know if there's enough time for this episode to share. Oh god. But what the hell I'll share it anyways. So it's something I I've shared this with you before. I even shared it with mom once. I was just thinking a lot the other day about all these girls that we see that are in their mid-30s, uh unmarried. Like we just talked to a girl just last week, and it was the same s stereotypical situation. I'm 35, I think she said she was 35. Yeah. 35, uh, I focused on my education, and um now I'm a licensed professional and uh I'm struggling to find a match. And what I keep coming back to is the immigrant story. We've all heard the story, right? That um parents came, our immigrants' parents, uh parents came in what the 70s, 80s, my parents came in the early 90s uh to the West. And some cases parents came with just five dollars in their pocket or maybe a couple hundred dollars, and somehow, some way they made it. They pursued further education, they built a career for themselves, they bought a house, and you know, found a way to settle here in the West. And essentially, in exchange, what they expected from their children was to focus on nothing but education, right? And they may not articulate it in that way, but the expectation was that I've sacrificed all of these things to build a life for you guys. In return, I expect you guys to become. Now, if you're brown, a doctor.

SPEAKER_02:

Also, if you're Arab.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, if you're Arab too. And if not a doctor, okay, maybe I'll settle for a lawyer engineer. Right. And anything short of that, you betrayed me, you've dishonored me, you've disgraced me. Now, obviously, I'm going a bit on the extreme here, but you've got to be.

SPEAKER_02:

But you don't appreciate you don't appreciate all the sacrifices exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So, and so in many cases, what you've seen is one of two situations. Um, some children rebelling, going against that, carving their own path, their own future for themselves, and much credit to them. But in many cases, um, especially with girls, they've lived up to that expectation. And they've focused on nothing but their education. They've done everything that their parents parents have asked for um from them, right? Pursuing an education, going for their undergrad for four years, um, going for medical school for another four years, residency for another three, four years, maybe a fellowship afterwards, uh, or you know, law school, where in between maybe they did some clerkship, whatever. And uh they dedicated eight, ten years to their education, they ended up in their 30s, and then they got to a point they say, All right, mom, all right, dad, I've done everything you've wished. I'm uh I'm a successful professional now, I'd like to get married. Well, guess what? Your parents are now in their late 60s or 70s, they're burned out, and they just don't have the energy to invest in finding you a suitable spouse. So what happens? You're left to your own devices. Yeah. And now you're struggling, and the apps aren't working, the matrimonial websites aren't yielding any success, and you're coming to matchmakers saying, Can you help me out? And we're just pretty much telling you the same thing. So, why am I bringing up this whole thing? One of the reasons parents or people are putting off children is because this guilt that they've developed from their parents, right? Where they had to live up to certain expectations and now they feel like subconsciously gonna pass on that same guilt to their children. Could be. Could be, right? Yeah, so for the for these people that have developed this immigrant guilt, uh having children just feels like another obligation. There's no joy behind having the children, there's no excitement.

SPEAKER_02:

Like I spent my life pursuing education, pleasing my parents. Now I want to have some time for myself to enjoy life. I don't want more responsibilities and more burdens.

SPEAKER_01:

So be wary of that, I guess is what I could say.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a lot of people, like, even if they don't have this issue of like immigrant guilt thing, but they don't want responsibility. They want to have a carefree life, and I get it. At one point we wanted that, right? Like we want to travel whenever we want, we want to, I don't know, go out whenever we want.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but Islam doesn't teach individualism. That's that's not our deal.

SPEAKER_02:

That's the thing. But living here in the West, we've adopted our own identity, I guess, where we get the Isla like the Muslim identity and the Western um beliefs and values.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it does feel like tug of war, right? One direction you're being pulled toward this, these individualistic values, and the other direction it's Muslim Islamic values that talk more about selflessness and giving back. Yeah. And it's kind of hard to form your own fusion of both.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like you feel good.

SPEAKER_01:

Like how do you right, like how do you merge between taking care of yourself and and your own needs versus taking care of the needs of others? Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02:

But you know, the same argument could be said about someone who doesn't want to get married for the fear of uh responsibility. Right. I want to stay single, I want to go out whenever I want, do whatever I want, uh, eat whenever I clean whenever I want.

SPEAKER_01:

I hear that from eight, 17, 18-year-olds. Uh oh yeah, you're a barber. Yes, my barber, yes, my barber is uh is a young kid.

SPEAKER_02:

Early 20. No, not even 20. Probably 19, 20. Something like that.

SPEAKER_01:

But is that even young girls like the girls that I've worked with, right, in their early 20s. Well, actually, they're not even in their early 20s, like 18, 19. And uh they've kind of adopted this mentality too, where and and large part because of probably what they've seen from their parents, where marriage is all about just taking care of somebody. Yeah, chores, it's all about chores, and then taking care of children, taking care of the husband, making sure that the husband has food to eat, and then ironing the husband's clothes in the morning, and then when he leaves, making sure the house is clean. And so this is the I mean, I'm I I guess I'm talking more about marriage than kids, but marriage also kind of fits into that picture too, where it's just all about fulfilling responsibilities.

SPEAKER_02:

And then you look around and see your Western culture, your non-Muslim friends, and all of that. But I feel like for people at that early age, it's just a phase they're gonna grow out of. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, if you have a story to tell, we'd love to have you on. Here you'll find a safe space of listeners who can understand what you're going through. Just shoot us an email with a summary of your story at info at halalmaj.ca.

SPEAKER_01:

Naturally, when people say I don't want kids, it does scream red flag in many cases. And we do actually warn that to our clients that you know it's it's totally your decision if you don't want children, but just realize you are limiting your options also.

SPEAKER_02:

They realize that. They know that. Because uh, like I said, when I uh knew that you also are not interested in children, I felt like I like I won the lottery because you were the first man in my life to like the first man I meet who's not interested in children.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, like admitting or saying to someone you don't want to have children just creates all these like layers of assumptions around you that might not be true at all. Like I said, I was afraid if I uh say that to a pro a prospect, they're gonna think that I'm a cold uh hearted person because that you're selfish, you're inflexible, you're westernized, you're westernized, that's a big one. You're westernized, exactly. You're not family-oriented. You're not family. Are you even a Muslim? Like I remember my mom kept trying to guilt me into having children because she said, Oh, it's haram to not uh to decide not to have um children, it's haram to like khat, which is like um um ending your bloodline or not allowing the bloodline to continue, right? You're doing something haram. You studied Sharia.

SPEAKER_01:

I love when I love when Muslims still run the haram carving. It's just oh my god.

SPEAKER_02:

I remember at that um MAC Iqna convention in 2019. Yeah, remember? Yeah, we asked a question, uh I think it was the same uh yes. Yeah, is it haram to decide not to have children? Oh yeah, I think you asked that question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. And he said, no, but it depends on like the circumstances and the reasons and all of that, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So And for context, he didn't start throwing around the haram card, even though he's a scholar.

SPEAKER_02:

So exactly, right? Yeah. So a lot of these assumptions are not true. Sometimes, like we said, it's because of trauma. Sometimes it's because of this generational trauma or the awful childhood you had.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. But at the same time, it does beg another question that if you Say you don't want children, is it are you unintentionally doubting Allah and and what He has planned for you and and uh not putting enough trust in Allah's plan?

SPEAKER_02:

Were we doubting Allah?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know, maybe we were.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we were doubting ourselves. Because like I said, I always had a feeling that I'm not gonna be a good mom.

SPEAKER_01:

Um that So that is uh doubting Allah's plan for you because part of the journey is trusting that Allah will make you help you get ready for parenthood, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, they say that no, when you have the child you will know exactly what to do and they will change you. So given that you put in the work, of course. I wouldn't say doubting Allah, or maybe subconsciously, but it's just maybe fear of the future, fear like not trusting yourself, not trusting the world around you. I don't know. It's a it's a complex question, honestly.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

I think a lot of people when they decide to have children, it's because they want to leave something behind, a legacy for uh lack of a better term. But the thing is there are other ways to live legacy. Like if you are firm about your decision not to have children, there are other ways to live legacy.

SPEAKER_01:

Now it sounds like you're trying to talk people out of having children.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I I want people to be true to who they are.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So if they are firm, they know they have a legitimate reason not wanting to have children. I mean, at the end of the day, this is a personal choice. And you shouldn't like just because you're being pressured through whether that's through family or through just because you want to get married or because you're listening to an episode or something. You shouldn't change your mind just because of that. If you're not really convinced of wanting to have children, if it's not coming from a real genuine desire, then that's your decision, right? We were there before. So like who are we to say that it's no, you must have children? No.

SPEAKER_01:

Ultimately, yeah, you're right. I mean, you have to want to have children.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. Without the desire, the real desire, it's not gonna be enjoyable, honestly. But if you are the kind of person who decides they don't want to have children, who know they don't want to have children, then there are other ways to leave legacy behind. Uh charitable organizations, some people exactly build orphanages, uh orphanages. Um, some people heal, some people rally behind. Yeah, like as a doctor, as a doctor, they like people, doctors who go on doctors without borders, doctors who are putting their lives on the line, going to places like Gaza, for example. Yeah, right? Some people leave a sadahajaria, some people rally behind a cause, whether that's or a wakf. Some people dedicate their lives for a cause, and I really respect people who do that. And uh, you might find it silly, but I really respect people who dedicate their lives to saving animals in need.

SPEAKER_01:

No, it's not silly.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, some people write, some people teach. There are a million ways to leave a legacy. So don't worry about that. Not wanting to have children means that I'm gonna be I'm gonna die and no one's gonna know about me and I'm gonna be forgotten and I was just burdened on this world. No, absolutely not. It's it all comes back to intention. With the right intention, anything can become uh a legacy.

SPEAKER_01:

For sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

So for anyone listening who might be struggling with this matter, questioning their desire for children, or maybe they know they don't want to have children, what kind of practical advice can we give them?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say the thoughts and feelings you have right now may change like it did change for us. Um but the important thing is is to dig deeper. And maybe one of the reasons you're not uh wanting or considering not having children is for the reasons that we just suggested. Um is it due to financial reasons, um, childhood trauma, you know, the spiritual responsibility, whatever the reason might be. Understand that Allah has a plan for you, uh, just like He had a plan for us. And and you know, there's one thing that we didn't mention actually in this episode that's very important. And the reason we're having children today is because of our parents. Both our moms would pray constantly. I mean constantly for us to have children. I think my mom would be praying tahjud at times. She does. Well, she prays tahjud. I mean I meant the hajjud specifically for the purpose of having children. So that's what I meant. She does.

SPEAKER_02:

So it went to Umrah and uh made du'a for us and that's another point.

SPEAKER_01:

Don't underestimate the power of du'a, especially your parents' du'as. I mean, the fact that I'm married and expecting a child is because of my mother's du'as, so credit goes to her. But yes, don't underestimate the power of dua. Um, don't uh under understand the reasons why you might be considering not having children. And many times, to be quite honest, they could be trivial reasons. They could be. Yeah, yeah, you know, but take the time to figure it out. Take the time. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Allah changes hearts between a heartbeat and the next, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And if you are, for whatever reason, firm on your decision not having children, just be true to that and don't think that you won't find somebody just like you thought you wouldn't find somebody that also doesn't want children. Don't think that you won't find somebody who doesn't want children too. Yeah. But actually, it's worth mentioning too. We have a client who at one point said she doesn't want children, and then after speaking to a professional, contacted her saying, it turns out that I do want children.

SPEAKER_02:

Because apparently she figured out the reason. She was she didn't want children for the wrong reasons. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So just like you were saying, Allah changes hearts. Yeah. Also, find a support system. Support systems are very, very helpful. I don't know if there's groups, Facebook groups, WhatsApp groups. I would advise to stick with Muslim groups specifically that share your values. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And uh so we're talking about groups of couples who don't want to have children. Right, right. And I don't know if such groups exist, but uh maybe, but it's uh because if you don't, you're gonna find yourself isolated. Um, all your friends are gonna be always with their uh kids, kids' gatherings, your relative and all relatives and all of that.

SPEAKER_01:

You don't want to have FOMO.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, not just FOMO, you don't want to feel isolated, like you don't belong, right? Yeah. So find support systems.

SPEAKER_01:

And lastly, and this was like we discussed, think long term, plan for your old age. Um, just realize that if you are firming this decision, you do run the risk of being alone in your old age.

SPEAKER_02:

Um plan for that financially or having a support team around you to like care for you in that age.

SPEAKER_01:

But you know, just a question you don't want to be subject to the government to take care of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh god, no. No. A question that occurred to me. Yeah. Two people they meet, they both don't want to have children, but then at one point one of them changes their mind.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Will the marriage survive? Will the other uh person have to make a sacrifice and change his mind, or the the perf the first person has to just swallow their desire and their ego and just live with that um with that uh sadness forever?

SPEAKER_01:

Like I mean What flipped the decision? What's the reason behind the not other person not wanting to have children? Can they figure out a way to relieve that concern? Is it financial, spiritual, social? Maybe they just don't have a social system, maybe it's because they're just so glued to their careers that they won't be able to make time for their children. Um, so is it worth cutting back on that? It does require lengthy discussion. And maybe maybe a third party or a professional getting involved also to help you dive into these things and figure it out.

SPEAKER_02:

So, how do you think we would have handled it if one of us changed their mind and the other didn't?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think either one of us was adamant about having children. Because when you brought it up, you were like, So, what do you think? You know, like do you want to be alone in your old age? And you were just like you would didn't put your foot down and say, We have to have children, right? Like that wasn't our conversation, it was more of a suggestion. And I thought about it and then we went back and forth, and it was kind of an organic journey, right? There was there was no friction, we never even thought about it. Like we fight about a million things, but not about we didn't have any fights when it came to the topic of children. Yeah, so like alhamdulillah, yeah, it was a blessing. So it was kind of just Allah opening doors, our parents' du'as coming to fruition. Yeah, it brought us to where we are, I guess.

SPEAKER_00:

Alhamdulillah.

SPEAKER_01:

Alhamdulillah. So, guys and girls, don't rush the decision solely to please others. Be realistic, okay, about what compromises might look like if you do decide to marry somebody that does not want children.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think if we decided to have children before, like just because of the our parents' pressure, we wouldn't have been happy. We wouldn't have enjoyed it. But when the time was right for us, when Allah put it in our hearts, two years later it happened.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. Everything happens for a reason, everything happens when the time is right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um, let us know, guys, your thoughts on this topic. I like it's not a topic that's talked about a lot because, like we said, it's not a common thing for couples, especially Muslim couples, not to want to have children. But if you're single and you are maybe just debating this question do I want children? Don't I want children? How will it affect my search? Will I find someone? Just drop your thoughts in a comment. We'd love to read.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, let us know how you're navigating these thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And uh until next time.

SPEAKER_00:

Salaamu alaykum.

unknown:

Oh my god.