Diary of a Matchmaker

Bad Marriage Advice Keeping You Single w/ Monica Tanner

• Halal Match • Episode 94

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Ever catch yourself thinking “I just need to find the perfect person and everything will click”? Yeah… we went there. In this episode, we sit down with coach and podcaster Monica Tanner and pull apart some of the most stubborn relationship myths floating around in our heads, especially the ones that sound romantic but quietly mess with our expectations.

We talk about what actually makes relationships work when real life kicks in. Not fantasy compatibility, not never arguing, but how two imperfect people handle differences. The conversation gets into boundaries, conflict, and the uncomfortable but freeing truth that marriage is not a magic fix.

If you have ever wondered whether you're making the search harder than it needs to be, this one will hit close to home. Expect a very real, very human conversation that might slightly ruin the idea of perfection for you, in the best way.

Tune in to Monica's podcast Secrets of Happily Ever After.

Find Monica's book Bad Marriage Advice on the book's website here or on Amazon.

If something we said made you think, laugh, or feel seen, leave us a rating and review! It helps more people find the show. And hey, if you know someone who needs to hear this episode, send it their way. Sharing is caring!


Welcome & Why A Christian Coach

SPEAKER_02

Assalamu alaikum. I'm Hiba.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm Zayd.

SPEAKER_02

You're listening to Diary of a Matchmaker.

SPEAKER_04

A podcast that will take you into our world as matchmakers.

SPEAKER_02

We'll share our experiences and offer advice for the single Muslim.

SPEAKER_04

So let's dive in. Assalamu alaikum, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Diary of a Matchmaker. I'm Zayd, and on the other mic is my wife and co-host Tiba.

SPEAKER_02

Asalaamu alaikum.

SPEAKER_04

So today we have a different guest. So as you guys know, we typically interview Muslim experts. Today we have Monica Tanner. She's a relationship coach who works mainly with Christian couples. She is also the host of a podcast called Secrets of Happily Ever After. Her mission is to lower divorce rates and improve marital satisfaction. She also has an Amazon best-selling book called Bad Marriage Advice. Now, some of you may be wondering why we're interviewing a Christian coach. Today, we not only want to learn from Monica's experience and expertise, but hopefully learn how much our two faiths align also with regards to marriage and see where there may be some conflicts. So thank you for coming onto the podcast, Monica.

SPEAKER_03

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. We're so excited to have you. Yeah, looking forward to this conversation.

Ice, Heels, And Humor In Love

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So you shared a funny story with us, which I'd like to share with the listeners. My husband and I dated long distance for several months before I moved to where he was going to school so we could get engaged. I was so excited to meet his friends once I moved to Idaho. The first Sunday I was there, he brought me to church to meet everyone. Now, being from Texas, I was not used to walking on ice and snow. As we were approaching the building where all of his friends were waiting to meet for the first time, I slipped on the ice and fell down several stairs, crashing into the glass doors where his friends were on the other side of. My very first introduction to all of them was brushing myself off, assuring them that I was okay, and giving myself a nine for gracefulness in navigating the icy stairway. We all had a good laugh together, and my husband has never let me walk down a flight of stairs without holding his hand in over 20 years. There were so many things that stood out about that story.

SPEAKER_03

Sorry, we're laughing, by the way.

SPEAKER_00

It's hard not to what's so funny about that story is my husband holds my hand away when we're on stairs together, but this morning he went to church early, and I was coming and I wanted to wear these really cute, really high heels. And I looked so cute, and then I fell down the stairs in my garage. And then knee open and had to go put band-aids on and change my clothes, and definitely changed my shoes. So I was like, how appropriate that we're telling this story because I am not very good at math on my own. Wow, this is uncanny. I literally just fell down the stairs. Wow. Are you okay? Yes, yes, but I do have a really funny picture of my bloody knee. My husband, you know, I sent my daughter to church without me. I was like, go tell dad I fell down the stairs.

Stop Seeking Perfect, Start Becoming

SPEAKER_03

And by the way, were you actually okay when you fell down the stairs last time? Oh yes, oh yes.

SPEAKER_00

I'm very resilient, you know. I am getting older now. That was 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_03

So we we're all getting older.

SPEAKER_04

I think one of the kind of takeaways from that story is that like what probably when you think back 25 years or when when you got married, is that you probably don't remember like the perfect flowers or the dress, or maybe you do, but one of the things that you probably remember so fondly is the funny, awkward moments and that that probably like kind of really mended and and uh brought you too close together, right? And it's not those perfectly curated moments that people always imagine when they're trying to plan their weddings and stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I think that's true in all of life. I think the most memorable moments are the ones that go awry, the ones where you can just kind of smile at each other and be like, well, we're in this together, right? I I have a huge appreciation for anyone who can find humor in the day-to-day of life.

SPEAKER_02

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04

So if you had to say one sentence that would just really upset a lot of single people about their future marriage, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I think I would say stop trying to find the perfect spouse and start becoming the perfect spouse. So focus more on what you're doing and less on who's gonna make you happy.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, well, that immediately takes us to the next was next question, where a lot of people they say, I am looking for the perfect spouse or for the person who completes me or whatever. But how often do you see that they are themselves, they wouldn't be a good spouse?

Myths: Soulmates, Mind Reading, Completion

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, it's interesting, it's not necessarily that they wouldn't themselves be a good spouse, but finding someone who completes you, that's actually one of the myths I talk about in my book. That's bad marriage advice. Because a marriage is not about two incomplete people coming together to create a whole. I think that you have to have two strong individuals to create a strong marriage. And so, like I said, a lot of us are looking for, you know, somebody who's gonna make us feel good and somebody who's gonna tell us the things we want to hear, and somebody who's gonna do things the way we do it. And more importantly than finding someone who's gonna do that is focusing on how we can become a really whole and um confident, complete human ourselves with opinions and ideas that we feel are important, that we know how to care for ourselves, that we know how to fill our cups and make ourselves happy. And then we can choose to share our life and light with another complete whole human.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting because that's one of the advice we always hear. Find someone who completes you. And uh so what other like common advice we hear being thrown out that are actually bad advice?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, I mean, in that same vein, I think people think, oh, if you find the right person, they're just gonna know what to do to make you happy or to be a good spouse, right? And the reality is, is we have to learn how to ask for and fight for the things that we think are important. Nobody can read your mind, nobody does hints, especially right now or around Valentine's Day, and I see all kinds of couples throwing out hints about what would be a good Valentine's celebration, right? And what I am preaching and always talking about is you have to learn how to ask for what you want, right? Like we as humans have to be able to give ourselves what we want and need, right? So if we need, you know, somebody to be understanding or loving or or um forgiving, we have to be able to do that for ourselves first. But also it it in order to have a great marriage, you have to be able to articulate those things to your partner. You have to ask for support when you need it, you have to um tell them what you're expecting around holidays and and and special occasions and even in day-to-day life. Like there is no one way to do relationships well. There we all have different relationship blueprints. And so to be able to ask for the things that we want skillfully from our partners and teach them how to treat us is one of the absolute best skills, I think, that we can kind of hone in on before we get married.

SPEAKER_02

I think one of the problems is that we assume, we assume that the other person knows what we're thinking, knows what we want, knows what we need. And when they don't deliver, then we're disappointed.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, not just that, but I feel like, and I've and I'm definitely guilty of this, that when you reach a certain point in your marriage where you feel like, don't you get me by now? Like, don't you know how I like my breakfast? Don't you know what, like, what gifts make me happy and things like that? Like, you have to, there's this assumption that there's there should be this level of chemistry and understanding after a certain point, but that's I guess not necessarily the case.

SPEAKER_00

It's not necessarily the case. And we're always changing our minds, right? And so, you know, just assuming that somebody loves you enough to know how you like your breakfast, or or you know, you've been married long enough to know. I mean, that's just silly. You're gonna end up disappointed time after time after time if you feel like you know, you want your spouse to be able to read your mind. And that's just kind of silly.

Self-Work, Attachment, And Readiness

SPEAKER_02

That's a good advice for people who are still like searching and people who've been married for a while. So let's remember that, Zayd, for next time we argue about breakfast. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02

Um, do you feel that some people hide behind the noble idea of self-improvement and self-work when they're actually afraid of commitment?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I think this is a really interesting principle because I think unwittingly, without knowing, we actually do attract someone who's very evenly matched with us in terms of emotional intelligence. So we're kind of attracted. If we've really worked on ourselves and we know a lot about ourselves and our emotional regulation and being able to ask for the things that we need, we usually attract people that are at the same level as us. So if we're really still working on ourselves, we're probably going to find somebody who's kind of on the lower echelon of that. But if we've done a lot of work, um, and you know, this is, I think, an important question to ask the person you're dating is how do you feel about, you know, self-development, working on yourself? And, you know, it's it's good to find somebody who's evenly matched, that both of you want to continue to work on yourselves and the relationship together. Um, so I think that's really important to be aware of your um your partner's kind of ideas about self-development and growth.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just thinking about some of uh our clients. Like you would look at a specific client and uh you would think they're they have everything. They're ready, they're mature, they're financially ready, and all of that. But then every time we introduce someone, they find something. Does it sound like being afraid of commitment or what?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, I think that's very real for a lot of people. Um, you know, they kind of put off uh marriage. For me, I I thought it was so value for my valuable for my husband and I to figure out a lot of those things together, right? My husband, we I had just graduated from college, he was still in college. And um, you know, I remember before I met him, there was I I dated men who had it all together, you know, they already had a house and an established job and all the things, and they just needed kind of a wife to complete the picture. Um, but that wasn't uh that wasn't appealing to me. I wanted to be able to work together in the trenches with somebody to establish ourselves together. So I mean, I don't know. And of course, my parents were super alarmed about that. They were like, wait, you're still in college, you don't have a job or an income. And my husband was like, nope.

Values Over Checklists

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there's there's so much I can take from that because it's it's a similar problem that we have within the Muslim community, too. So Islamically speaking, you know, men are it is the obligation upon the men to be able to provide food, shelter, clothing, basic maintenance, and things like that. But at the same time, it's not against Islamic principles for a woman to also help with that, right? To uh help uh with financial support and things like that. And yet we just sometimes take these principles and blow it out of proportion and uh create unrealistic expectations and almost burdens upon men uh to have a certain standard or to be able to provide a certain amount that is beyond what's required, Islamically speaking. So yeah, I don't definitely see a lot of that in the Muslim community.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and just in my own personal experience, I loved being able to work while my husband was still going through school. And then when he graduated, we worked together to build our business for several years until I had too many kids and I was like, I can't do it anymore, right? But um, but we were very aligned on our values of hard work and you know, working together and being able to, you know, we're very, very different in the way that we operate, right? And so our skill sets combined pretty well, but we had to learn to communicate, you know, because I was very organized and like things done a certain way. And he was like, you know, kind of fly by the seat of his pants and whatever. And so, you know, it took a lot for us to be able to communicate. Like, how are we gonna work together and how are we gonna utilize both of our strengths and compensate for our weaknesses together? And so it was good that we started a business together before we started having kids and and all of that.

SPEAKER_02

So, yeah. What is the one trait that people proudly list as a non-negotiable when it actually doesn't matter that much in marriage, that's like overrated?

Compatibility vs Navigating Differences

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. Uh, that's interesting because I think uh I think compatibility is kind of a big misnomer when when we're getting married. In fact, I'm just about to do a reel about um Dave Ramsay, who's a huge personality. He talks about money, and I think that his his content about money is is is great. But every once in a while he steers over into the lane of marriage and he's like, you know, you you should make sure that this is exactly what I want to talk about. You should make sure that you agree on money, children, uh what else, religion, and in-laws, I think are the four things he said. You should agree on these things before you decide to get married. And if you do this, you'll you'll make it. And I'm like, are you kidding me? First of all, my husband and I, he wanted 12 kids, and I wanted eight kids when we got married. We ended up having four. We we completely disagree on everything that has to do with money. Uh, we are our in-laws, you always think like, oh, I'm gonna, I, you know, no matter how perfect the family is that you're marrying marrying into, there's always gonna be drama with in-laws at some point, of course, in the marriage. And then um, religion, my husband and I come from extremely different religious values. So when we talk about or religious experiences, so when we talk about religion, we come at it from very different angles. And I think it's been such a blessing to our kids to have such different um ideas and experiences and perspectives. So to me, I think people look for somebody who's a lot like them to marry. And I think more importantly, is can you find somebody that you can navigate your difference, differences with? Because chances are you're gonna marry somebody who's different than you. I mean, if you married somebody who was exactly like you, life would be very boring. First of all, it's gonna be hard to find somebody who's exactly like you because that's not real. And second of all, um, yeah, I feel like that would be so boring if you just agreed about everything. When I have a couple that they're like, they come in and they're like, we never fight. I'm like, one of you is lying. Because the reality is we are so different. And so learning how to navigate those different differences, that's important. So, so make sure that you find somebody who's willing to um, you know, consider other perspectives, being able to talk through things, be curious about you, um, you know, admit when they're when they're mistaken about something. Those things are important, but but agreeing on everything, I don't think that's important at all.

SPEAKER_04

That that's an interesting point because it kind of reminds me of myself and and HIBA. So on paper, and I say this to our clients every time we share our measure story, that on paper we're not a very compatible couple. She's from the Middle East, I grew up here, she her first language is not English, my first language is English, and the list goes on and on. And I feel like there's some similarities with you. You're in a different state, you have different religious experiences from your husband, yet there on paper there's so many differences. Yeah, but how did you get to a point where you said there's enough compatibility here for me to move forward and consider this person as a future husband? So, where did you see that bridge exactly?

Harmony, Disharmony, Repair

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, my husband and I talked a lot, and the majority of our relationship, like we talked about earlier, was long distance. So we used to talk on the phone for hours and hours and hours and hours. And what we learned about each other is that we had very similar goals, very similar values. We looked at things in a similar way. But you're right, on paper, we are so very different. And I think that is what makes our relationship fun and exciting and intimate because we we can't just we don't just make the same decision immediately, right? Like we we have to talk about it, we have to dig into it. Um, that creates a lot of passion and fun. Um, we get in a we get in big fights because we disagree about things and we're both very passionate and independent. Um, but that makes our repair even more important. And so I always talk about relationships are an endless cycle of harmony, disharmony, and repair. And the the harmony is made better by the the moments of disharmony when when repair is made. So in those repair times is when trust is built, it's when intimacy is deepened, it's when the strength of your relationship is is really tested. And so if you can repair well, then you you're you come back stronger and that harmony is even more beautiful, right? But you can't have that without disharmony. And disharmony comes when you disagree. So I think that, you know, couples that are different from each other have so much to um create together. It makes it so much more fun because it's like I see the front of the elephant and you see the back of the elephant. And so if we can talk about what you're seeing and what I'm seeing and somehow come up together with the fact that it's that we're looking at an elephant, that's so much more fun than like both of us are just looking at the butt of an elephant for the whole for our whole life.

SPEAKER_02

That's a complete mindset shift, honestly. And I'm so happy you mentioned that because um, like what we tell our clients is we use a slightly different terminology, saying you're not gonna find somebody who like you're gonna agree with on everything, but look for someone who you can tolerate and they can tolerate you. But I love what you said, someone you can navigate these differences with because it already like sets the tone or the default that we are gonna be different. So, like, don't be surprised when these differences start to show, right?

Courting, Dating, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00

And when you say tolerate, I love the word respect. Like my husband and I are very different, even on a Sunday, right? Like my husband wouldn't do an interview like this on a Sunday. His Sundays are very rigid for him, right? But he respects the fact that I'm willing to do this. So it's like, you know, and and I respect the fact that he isn't, right? So if someone were to say, can I do an interview with you and your husband? My husband doesn't like to do that. And so I respect, you know, we have a lot of respect for each other and our differences. And that's that's very, very important. In fact, this is so funny. I have some friends and they just did a reel on social media, and it was her teaching him how to put the pillows on the bed. So, you know, she the decorative pillows for the bed, and so it's this cute little interaction between them. And she's like, Do you know how I like the pillows on the bed? And he's like, No. And so he starts to, you know, put the pillows on the bed, and she's like, Now, why would you put that one there? You know, and and he just laughs and he goes, Well, okay, is this one first? And so she's teaching him something that he would find very trivial. Men typically don't really care about the decorative pillows on the bed, but women do. It's a value for them to make things beautiful in that way, right? And I always say you should invite your partner into your bedroom and see how they handle, you know, kind of the correction that it takes to learn how to put the pillows on the bed and if they'll value that. And that I think that's a great litmus test for will they be a good partner is are they going to tolerate or respect the fact that, you know, putting the pillows on the bed is an important part of being married? And can you handle the correction in that?

SPEAKER_02

I'm laughing because I'm remembering right now, Zaid, you probably forgot this, but like you and your husband, we've courted for 40 months virtually, it was COVID. And then when I was able to come here, I came here and Zayd was so proud of him that he was able to like put the uh bed sheet on and the pillowcases and you know, stuff the duvet in the duvet cover and stuff. And I came and I'm like, what the hell is this? He had it all done wrong.

SPEAKER_01

I do remember that.

SPEAKER_03

And the poor guy who was so proud of himself.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And he's like, Oh, okay, sorry, you know, and and and learn how to do it.

SPEAKER_04

Now it's one of those things where just Hiba does it, and I'm just like, I stay out of it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, stay out of my way. Yeah, but I I really like hope and wish every single person just internalized what you said about navigating the differences. Like what we see uh matching people a lot of a lot of times, we see how compatible they are in terms of values, but then they start talking, and like in the first meeting, she says something he doesn't agree with, or he answers a question that she doesn't agree with, and immediately they conclude that no, this is a good match. Next. Because they're coming to the relationship, assuming that we have to be similar on every level. So that's a great reminder you had there.

Growth Doesn’t Magically Appear After Marriage

SPEAKER_04

I want to dive deeper up into the topic of values because people sometimes have this very abstract, like vague conception of values, like even when We take client calls, they say, I want um someone with religious values. Okay, well, that could look differently from one person to another. And yet, people they haven't really taken the time to understand what deep down is one of the core values. So, was that something you was that like self-work that you did at some point and you really had a solid understanding of what your core values were and you used that as a guiding compass for when you were talking to your husband? Can you elaborate on that a bit?

Perfection, Netflix Mindset, And Patience

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, we spent so much time talking about how we envisioned our future, you know, like how I envisioned my future and how he envisioned his future. And not that, I mean, like we met in Texas where I'm from, and he is from Idaho. And so he envisioned his future in Idaho, and I envisioned my future in Texas. So it was still different, but the things that were, and we ended up raising our family in Idaho. So, um, and and I'm so happy and grateful that we did. So of course we disagreed on things, but the things that felt really, really important, like we want to raise, you know, a family. We want um, you know, we want to teach them hard work and um how to contribute in the world. And um, we want um we want to have our home be like a an inviting place where our kids' friends can come. Um, we want to uh we want to serve in the in our community and in our church, like those types of things, the way we envisioned our future aligned. But like I said, he wanted eight, he wanted 12 kids. I wanted eight. And so it's not that it was exactly we agreed on everything, but it's like we want a lot of children. We want to be able to raise these children, we want to enjoy our children. You know, we both uh feel like sports were really um intrical in our growing up and you know, want our kids to learn the lessons from working hard at at sports or something that they feel passionate about. So I mean, it's like a loose, loose agreement, but but you can feel in your heart the things that are really important. I knew that I wanted to be a really involved mother. I knew I wanted to be at the crossroads when my kids left for school and came home from school. I wanted to be there when they came home in the evenings after dates or whatever, um, to be able to talk to them. And I knew I wanted a man who felt similar, who wanted to be very involved in their kids' lives, who wanted to coach my kids' sports, who wanted to hang out with the teenagers, you know? And so those things that felt really important, those things aligned. The the other stuff, it's just details.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, just like we tell our clients that like everything else will fall into place as long as the important things line up. Yeah. If you're overwhelmed and burdened and just don't know where to seek help, let us help you. We can be your personal matchmakers. Visit us at halalmatch.ca and book a free call with us. I wanted to talk a little bit about the difference in terms of how we, like Muslims versus Christians, go about the courting phase. So of course, it's common amongst Christians to date first. Um, but in our faith, there is really no concept of dating, it's more like courting, right? Where when you're meeting the opposite gender, your intentions are clear from the get-go that the person you're meeting is for the purpose of marriage and that everything is kind of built upon that. And then there's like very strict boundaries and stuff regarding premarital sex, um, whether it's holding hands and things like that. So I wanted to see how much is there overlap between our faiths when it comes to that and where the differences are. So, how did your process go about?

Self-Worth, Humility, And Impact

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I mean, oh some of my dating was I was Jewish and then I converted to Christianity. So I have like a big wide perspective on it. Um, but I think, you know, as far as the way that we've raised our kids, you know, to date, um, we we value dating just for fun, especially um in high school. We we want our kids to date a lot of different types of people and do it in kind of group settings too. Like, like we we really um encourage them to to date in groups and to date just lots of different boys, just to get an idea of you know how you treat people with respect, how you ask questions to learn about people, um, just having fun. We don't want our kids to date like exclusively when they're so young, um, but but get like a, you know, in fact, my husband, when he was growing up, he had a rule that he couldn't go out on a date with the same person twice in a row. Like he was supposed to kind of vary it out. So he could just get to know lots of different types of of girls and and and what he liked. So I think that worked out well for him. My kids have kind of done all different things. Um, but but I but the idea is to court or or date for the purpose of eventually getting married. Like you, it's all data and information for the type of person that you would want to spend your life with. And then as far as the the physical kind of constraints of you know, no premarital sex and like different, we we agree, I agree completely with you that I think it's really important to have some good kind of physical boundaries. And I think that talking about that early in your dating um is so important because you know, to have somebody who respects kind of your um comfort level and um your your decisions around all of that, I think is really important as well.

SPEAKER_02

So a lot of people say that I will uh improve this certain quality after I get married, I'll become calmer, I'll become more patient, I'll become more confident. How delusional do you think this thinking, this way of thinking is based on your coaching experience?

SPEAKER_00

Very delusional.

SPEAKER_02

I say good luck with that.

SPEAKER_00

I think that we typically um I when you're in close proximity with another person that sees all of your flaws, that see all of your humanness, it's very difficult. Um, you know, because you you want to be a good partner, um, but that other person that you live with is is very good at poking you where it hurts. And I think this is for a very good reason, it's because it's giving you the opportunity to heal those things, right? And so if you think that you're just gonna, at the snap of a finger, be a better person around your spouse, I think that's very delusional. I think they're gonna bring out the worst in you. Why? Because they're so important to you and they're gonna expose all of those flaws.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, unfortunately, some people think the other way that my spouse will actually heal me and fix me and make me a better human.

The One Skill: Compassionate Curiosity

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that goes back to those myths that those marriage myths that are just not right. I'm curious to know what are other common myths that we hear. Well, that one I think is a really interesting one. I always hear like if you marry the right person, they'll never hurt you. And I think that's very delusional. I think that the person you marry is explicitly designed to hurt you in the ways that are going to give you the opportunity to heal because your spouse won't heal you, but they will give you the opportunity to heal by kind of poking you where it hurts, exposing those wounds to you. And then hopefully they have more resources than your family of origin. So I feel like we were wounded in relationship in our early childhood relationships, and we're given the opportunity to heal in our relationships. In fact, I feel like the biggest gift that you can give your children is to heal those that childhood wounding at some point. Um, because you know, I think no matter how perfect we are as parents, and a lot of us try really hard to be perfect, but no matter how perfect we are, we will wound our children somehow in some way. I think that's kind of the point of life. And but to for them to know and understand and feel confident that they will be able to heal in their romantic marriage relationships is such a gift that we can give them.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, it's good to enter marriage with this expectation rather than from the first fight just decide to break it off.

SPEAKER_00

Well, my so my son who's who's 22, uh, he when he came and said, Mom, I I've met the girl I want to marry, I remember thinking, Oh my gosh, you're so young. But I also the next my next question was, have you had a fight yet? Because I think it's so important to have a fight, to know how to disagree and how the other person is gonna show up in that fight before you decide to get married. Like when I have couples that come for premarital counseling, I'll always say, Tell me about your first fight. And because you want to know, is that person gonna show up with humility? Are they gonna be able to apologize? Are they gonna be able to be curious about how you see things and or are you know what you know what are their losing strategies? Do you know what they are? Do you know what you're dealing with? So um I think it's really, really important to disagree and to fight before you decide to get married because you just never know.

SPEAKER_03

Zaid, did we fight before getting married?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, during our courting phase, I think we had a few disagreements here and there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, but did we actually have a fight?

SPEAKER_04

God, I can't, I can't remember. Uh it was too long ago.

SPEAKER_00

We're pretty close. Yeah, you know, you don't have to have a knockdown, drag out fight to but it's disagreement, right? Like, are you, you know, a a point of of tension where you have different ideas about the same thing? Um, it's important to be able to work through those, I think, and know how you both work through those things before you decide to like spend your life together.

SPEAKER_03

Well, now I think we're experts like every other day we disagree on something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's good. That makes life kind of fun, right? Yeah, it is. It is, it is, yeah.

Getting Unstuck And Letting Go Of Ideals

SPEAKER_04

So, what would you say is one way that people usually sabotage marriage before it even starts, like without people even realizing it.

SPEAKER_00

Ooh. I mean, yeah, demanding perfection because my kids are of marrying age, right? And so some of them are getting older and not marrying. And I think part of the reason is because they're looking for something so specific, and they might not ever find it.

SPEAKER_02

I think this is a problem with this generation, not just your kids. Like we see it every day every day with clients, and it's hard to convince them that perfection doesn't exist. You yourself are not perfect, but they have to learn it the hard way.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and not just perfection. I think the other problem is instant gratification. And we see with our clients that they have this, as I call it, the the Netflix mindset when it comes to choosing a spouse, right? We just want to binge our way through like 10 different people and just like say, okay, do you want kids? Do you want kids? Do you want kids? You want kids? And you're just like interrogating 10 people and not realizing that the person you're speaking to is a human being, right? And that there's much more than just a list of questions to understand about the person.

SPEAKER_00

I was just gonna say, I marriage is such a crucible for you know learning and growing and becoming, right? Like you're you you kind of, no matter when you get married, you're kind of growing up with this person, right? And so you are going from a very kind of rough form to you know being able to fully develop into who you want to become. So it's it's important to really realize that you are such a huge part of you know, your partner's growth growth, right? And it's like being able to witness that, I think is the the beauty of a marriage and a relationship, is you know, if if if I were to find the perfect person, then that would again, I always say this, but it would be so boring. Like it would be boring to marry, to be married to somebody who's perfect who always agreed with you.

Premarital Coaching And Seeing The Label

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. I think that's a mistake a lot of people make, um especially like what we see amongst single Muslims, they want someone that's ready, that's done it all, that's just arrived ready. And like, like you said, it's boring. You want someone to grow, uh, to grow old with and experience different life experiences with. It's gonna be boring if they're already made it and they're already covered from A to Z. What's left, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Uh, but talking about perfection takes me to self-worth. So a lot of people say, I know my self-worth. When do you think this turns into entitlement more than just self-awareness and self-confidence?

Resources, Date Night Journal, Closing

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I mean, I think when you're in a relationship, the the person that you're in relationship with is really important to you. And so knowing your impact or being able to take feedback about what your impact on them, um, that takes a lot of humility. So, you know, I think if you your your self-worth is is untouchable. I mean, nothing is raises or lowers your worth as a human. Um, that doesn't mean that we don't impact each other in good and bad ways. And so, you know, I think it is important to realize that I have worth, but it's no better or worse than yours. And so to walk around in life that way, especially with your partner, to recognize that we both have a lot of worth, but we also might be impacting each other in other ways. And I want to know, you know, what my that doesn't mean it's easy to hear. Like I want to know what my impact is on my partner. That doesn't mean when he says, oh, you know, I'm volatile and emotional, and you know what, like that doesn't mean it's easy to hear, but it does mean that I I I want to know what my impact is on him so that I can, you know, change or grow or or do better. And so, so yeah, but it but but knowing your worth and you know, knowing that it doesn't change, even if you make lots and lots of mistakes or you have lots and lots of accomplishments, your worth doesn't change, and your worth is no better or worse than the person next to you.

SPEAKER_02

Beautiful, yeah. You don't tie your worth to anyone, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, but then again, you sometimes we've seen this where clients come in and they just think they are a 10 out of 10, or when they're really not, like, and they just have this unrealistic impression of themselves, and it's just really hard to kind of give them a reality check and say, uh, you gotta bring yourself down if you're not just uh I think life will probably give them a reality check they need at some point.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, too late sometimes.

SPEAKER_04

So, quick question for you someone listening had to just choose one uncomfortable area to work on before getting married. What is the one thing you think that they could improve upon uh to make their future marriage better?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so that would be I would say broadly communication, specifically listening with compassionate curiosity. I think that I think compassionate curiosity should always be our default. So no matter what situation we're in in relationship, having compassionate curiosity for your partner's subjective reality, I think is one of the most important things that we can do. So, in order, I think, to have the best possible marriage or relationship, our goal should be a deep and abiding friendship. It's it and everything that goes along with that, it's respect, it's love, it's empathy, compassion, all of those things. So, so if you want to really like, you know, in your dying breath, be like, we did this right, it's to really feel a deep sense of friendship with the person that you spent your life with. And I think the way that is accomplished is by having compassionate curiosity, not only for yourself, but for your partner, in the recognition that their experience is different than yours. I think couples have big problems, big problems, I think, very problematically, is couples get into arguments about who's right or what is right, when the reality is who's right and who's wrong in any relationship is who cares. Or your experience is right and your partner's experience is right, and they will never match up. Sometimes people say, let's just agree to disagree. And I say, No, no, no, no, no. The point is not to agree, the point is to understand. And so if I could like say, What is one thing that you could work on to make your life really amazing? It's learn how to listen for understanding, not to try and get another person to agree with you. You will be very disappointed and upset if you go through life trying to get other people to see it your way, do it your way, or agree with you. What really is of value is learning how to understand people that are different than you, that might see things differently or experience things differently, or or already did experience things differently, right? Like every time you have a conversation with somebody who is different than you and you learn how to understand and make room for these differences, you broaden your perspective. You see more of the elephant. Like I said, you don't want to spend your entire life looking at the butt of an elephant. It would be so much better if you got more perspective and understanding so you could see the whole the majesty of the whole animal.

SPEAKER_02

I think this requires a great deal of discipline. We as humans were programmed to immediately want to prove ourselves right, want to um, I don't know, pass judgment to listen just for the sake of listening and understanding and not seeking approval. That's something that needs practice. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for, practice. Yeah, I think I mean I need a moment to internalize that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I like to I like to think of things visually. The reality is, is people who don't seek for understanding from other people, people that are very stuck in their ways, they're probably looking at the butt of an elephant. And they if they don't learn to listen and understand other people's point of view, they're probably gonna spend their entire life just looking at the butt of an elephant and thinking that that's what an elephant looks like.

SPEAKER_03

Now, this this imagery is gonna be stuck with me for a while.

SPEAKER_00

Like you're gonna you're gonna start to meet people and you're gonna be like, that guy is spending his entire life looking at the butt of an elephant.

SPEAKER_04

And going along that same vein, I can see that, and we we actually dedicate an episode to this too, that this typically happens with people who delay marriage. That when you cross a certain point, 30, 35, even 40, that you're just stuck in your weights. Your ability and your patience and willingness to broaden your perspective, to see things from a different lens, it really diminishes over time because you're just so set in doing things a certain way. And that's why marriage becomes harder the older you get, because it's just you haven't you just lost the ability to make room for that. And the people that give us the hardest time getting mashed are our older clients, typically.

SPEAKER_03

Because they're so dedicated to staring at that butt.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my god. Do you work with uh only married couples or couples who are in the courting phase?

SPEAKER_00

Um both. I I I see a lot of couples. I love doing um engagement and newlywed work. That's one of my favorite, um, because I think they're really setting themselves up for uh success when they you know prepare well for marriage. And I also work with a lot of single individuals who have had trouble. Um, I I I don't know how familiar you familiar you are with attachment theory, but um I work with individuals who are who feel like they have an anxious attachment to help them get into healthy relationships. I help them make have a more secure attachment. Um, so I work with clients all along the spectrum.

SPEAKER_02

Wonderful. And what are some of the patterns you're seeing, especially if we're talking about people who are engaged to be married?

SPEAKER_00

I think they're getting a lot smarter. I think they don't want to make the same mistakes that their parents made. I think a lot of a lot of uh uh people had parents who who have divorced once, twice, multiple times. And so I think people are getting real a lot smarter about marriage. They want to get started on the right foot. They they know that that honeymoon period at some point is gonna end and they wanna be prepared. And so I am I I think that these couples that come and get help before they get married are so courageous and so smart.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. We we always encourage people to seek premarital counseling. It's it's not we ourselves didn't go through it for, I don't know, Zayd. Why didn't we?

SPEAKER_04

We weren't uh aware that that option was available. It wasn't as popular back then, or as far as I know, it wasn't as popular back then within the Muslim community, uh, as popular as it is now.

SPEAKER_00

Reality, I think everybody needs a good coach, counselor, somebody to help them see what they cannot see, right? And it's not that, you know, I don't think of myself as this expert, like I'm so much smarter than anyone else. I just it's easy to see in others. It's easy to be able to point out. Um, it like I always say, you can't see the label from the inside of the bottle. So to get a third perspective to kind of help you see what your impact is and where your weaknesses are, uh, is very helpful.

SPEAKER_02

Beautiful, beautiful. What is one advice you would give this one listener who's listening to us right now, who's been through so much, tried to get to know so many people, and just it's not. Working and they're about to just give up the whole idea of marriage. What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, get in touch with your own humanity. To somebody who's really, really struggling, they probably have a very high ideal and they're probably not seeing their own humanity, right? Like you're not perfect. And so, you know, can you love somebody else who's imperfect, right? Like I always say the best marriages is two imperfect people just striving to share a life, right? And so, um, you know, if there's a listener out there who's like, I've tried everything, I can't find the perfect partner, stop looking for the perfect partner and start like looking at yourself, you know, what do you have to offer? And can you share your life with someone else?

SPEAKER_02

Uh, this is the nail on the right spot. But just before this interview, Zaid and I were recording this uh YouTube video where things we hear from our clients and we wish we could reply a certain way, but we wouldn't, you know, because of courtesies and stuff. And one of them was like a client who would say something like, uh, I'm looking for someone who's this height and like uh who looks this way and who has this certain job and who has these certain qualities, but I can't find them. What's the problem? So what we would like to say is, buddy, you're not that special, right? Yeah, but we wouldn't. But yeah, of course not. But um, yeah, that's a great advice.

SPEAKER_04

Uh you are on social media, right? On Instagram, Facebook. Okay, if you if you don't mind sharing your your handle.

SPEAKER_00

And also, where can people find your book? Yeah, so my book is just on Amazon. You can find I have two books actually. One right now uh for is really fun for Valentine's Day. It's called The Date Night Journal. And so it's a commitment to take your spouse on a date once a week, and then you can keep track of your love story one date at a time, is how I say. Bad marriage advice is also available on Amazon. You can get them both there. Um, and then I am on social media, Moni Talks Marriage is my Instagram handle. But you can find out everything about me. Uh, my podcast, my free resources, and how to work with me at monicatanner.com. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Wonderful. We have a link to all of that. And I think I want to get that book, uh, the date night thing. Maybe Zaid, we should try that one.

SPEAKER_04

Sure. Yeah, we could try that.

SPEAKER_00

Very, very, very simple. You just you make a bucket list of all the dates that sound fun, and then you you go out on a date once a week and you just keep track of three things. So it's what did you do on your date? What did you learn about your partner on your date? And what do you never want to forget about your date? And then at the end of the year, you can look back and see your whole year was worth of dates.

SPEAKER_02

Beautiful. Beautiful. Wonderful. That's a great idea. Well, thank you so much, Monica, for your time for sharing. Um, really um open my our minds and perspectives to just new angles and new way to think about some things. I hope you guys, our listeners, enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. And until next time.